tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post2169697939751942500..comments2024-03-19T05:50:19.572-04:00Comments on What's Alan Watching?: Lost, "The Incident": The men behind the curtainAlan Sepinwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03388147774725646742noreply@blogger.comBlogger257125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-62435480622390255482009-05-23T23:43:39.391-04:002009-05-23T23:43:39.391-04:00Esau/Jacob story that parallels the two men on the...Esau/Jacob story that parallels the two men on the beach:<br /><br />Esau was born first. But when his twin brother Jacob was being born, Jacob's hand was holding onto Esau's heel. This was taken as a sign that Jacob wanted to be born first. Later in life, Jacob continued to show that he wanted to be his father's heir.<br /><br />One day, Esau returned from an unsuccessful hunting trip and was famished. He saw that Jacob had been cooking food and he asked for a serving. Jacob asked him if he would be willing to sell his rights as the first-born son in exchange for a bowl of food. Esau agreed. (Genesis 25:29-34.)<br /><br />Regardless of whether Esau was being serious or flippant in selling off his birthright, Jacob sought to make good on the deal and, with his mother's help, tricked his aging father into giving Jacob the blessing that traditionally would been reserved for the first-born.Jon Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09950246479397747057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-3793800634804520052009-05-22T09:41:03.949-04:002009-05-22T09:41:03.949-04:00Jacob told Kate not to steal ever again. Hence, gi...Jacob told Kate not to steal ever again. Hence, give back Aaron.Stephaniemarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372189667075796612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-77112418471797735652009-05-20T17:36:48.891-04:002009-05-20T17:36:48.891-04:00RSR said... One more thought, did anyone else get ...<I>RSR said... One more thought, did anyone else get the idea that Juliet is somehow going to be extremely connected with the smoke monster...it sounded like chains or a crank</I>I thought the exact same thing. The sound of her being pulled into the shaft was exactly the same sound we heard when Locke was pulled by smokie.Kymnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-40197103697453723662009-05-20T11:14:32.920-04:002009-05-20T11:14:32.920-04:00(I'm anonymous from #252)
I'm not so sure...(I'm anonymous from #252)<br /><br />I'm not so sure Jacob and AJ represent good and evil either, at least from what we've seen so far. It seems Jacob thinks he can 'save mankind': bring out the good in them where as AJ thinks humans are rubbish and should be left to it - and not brought to the island paradise to fight, destroy and corrupt. So not really evil, just can't be doing with humans on his island.<br /><br />Every faction on the island seems to be ruthless; Ben & Widmore certainly are, dharma had their moments, even Ilyana & co do things like whack innocent pilots. The Losties have killed and recently went on their dharma killing shooting spree even if all in 'a good cause'. (Although maybe they think they won't have died if everything gets 'reset'. If that system restore doesn't work they could always try restoring to an earlier point.)<br /><br />Free will/destiny have been strong themes of the show but like other posters have said I don't think AJ and Jacob are opposites in that as Jacob appears to personify both. He brings people to the island ( definitely the Black Rock people because AJ said so). He weaves their fates in the tapestry. At the same time he tells them they have a choice; like Ben could walk away from killing him even though Jacob then deliberately said something that tipped Benbo over the edge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-29592529617172161642009-05-19T11:56:00.000-04:002009-05-19T11:56:00.000-04:00Re: Jacob getting "in touch" with the lo...Re: Jacob getting "in touch" with the losties during the flash back scenes.....do you think it is significant that Jacob not only touches the character but also he GIVES them something (Hurley - Guitar case, Sawyer - a pen, Freckles - a lunchbox, Sun & Jin - a blessing etc...) Maybe each character has SOLD themselves (thier sole/spirit) to Jacob?Ian W (UK)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-28824720963826962752009-05-19T00:38:00.000-04:002009-05-19T00:38:00.000-04:00Finally read everything; I'm too tired to write do...Finally read everything; I'm too tired to write down all my thoughts on the finale.<br /><br />Just want to second someone said waaaayyy back in the comments, and no one answered:<br />how the hell did the H-Bomb not explode as it fell down the hole, didn't explode when tons and tons of steel crashed upon it, but went off when Juliet, dying, gave it a few feeble hits with a stone?<br /><br />Some are saying that the white flash we saw at the end of the episode wasn't the H-Bomb exploding, but one of those time-travelling-flashes, that sent Jack and Co. back to 2007.<br /><br />Well, if that was in fact the case, what event caused the flash to happen? It wasn't Juliet hiting the bomb, was it?<br /><br />Also, I didn't like those chains pulling her down the hole, felt odd to me. Don't know if the special effects were bad or what, but it seemed to purpuseful, like the chains were some kind of monster pulling her down.<br /><br />I didn't like the 1977 bit of this episode, anyway. For the same reasons everyone else didn't: Jack bothered me, but I could buy it. What I couldn't buy were Juliet's reasons to go aong with this (and that extremely didatic and misplaced flashback showing her parents getting divorced was forced and annoying, I hated it for being this easy, silly way to sell Juliet's motivations).<br />And I didn't buy Kate's reasons either, as well as Hurley's and Miles'. Jin's were a little more acceptable, but I would still think that he would demand further explanation as to why setting off a H-Bomb would bring him and Sun back together.<br /><br />The first scene was kinds of awesome, and I pretty much liked the whole Jacob storyline; it had this epic feel to it that was really cool. And I really loved that they introduced him pretty much like a normal guy, eating fish on the beach; not like some kind of mighty entity (which he probably is). Even though it seemed obvious from the very first flashback that we would see Jacob interacting with the Losties in their previous lives, it was still amusing to see how he guided them, but not determined their path. He seems like a combination of faith and free-will that enhances the discussion of these subjects.<br />[But I don't know if I like that Jacob and so-called Esau are good vs. evil. I think I'd rather the fate vs. free-will thing. But it seems that, as Jacob encapsulates both concepts in himself, this is not the case].<br /><br />Just one final note regarding the unLocke. It seems clear to me that unLocke was some kind of manifestation of Esau. However, I really don't think that it necessarily implies that the other dead people "reincarnated" on the island (Christian, Yemi) are manifestations of him, too.<br />There's a crucial difference between them: both corpses of Christian and Yemi disappeared, and I think it's safe to assume that it has some correlation with the fact that we saw them reappearing on the island.<br />On the other hand, one of the major revelations of the finale was the fact that box that Ilana and the "shadow of the statue" group had contained Locke's body.<br />So, unLocke is pretty different than the apparitions we saw before (he interacted with more people, too, and acted much more like a "normal" person - as much as it could, given the situation - than the apparitions of Yemi and Christian).James M. Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09169923023552484844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-41840985364673615752009-05-17T16:07:00.000-04:002009-05-17T16:07:00.000-04:00All very interesting comments.
FWIW I think the s...All very interesting comments.<br /><br />FWIW I think the satue may be an amalgamation of two or more egyptian gods/goddesses beccause no single descriptions sound entirely correct.<br /><br />I think the writers are drawing on a lot of different mythology and more modern stories (eg ones people have suggested above) and mixing them up to get their overall stories and two big charachters, Jacob and AJ (=man2) - I call him AJ as in anti-jacob.<br /><br />Intersting stories to look up (on wiki if you trust it) are Jacob and |Esau, Orisis and Set from Egytpitan mythology. They are god brothers and Set kills orisis. But orisis gets ressurected (by his wife and sister) to become god of the dead and the living. (I think) Also kronos and oceanus - rival god brothers in greek mythology. kronos kills his father, uranus (god of the sky.) His mum is gaia, goddess of the earth (like in sun and jins wedding vows.) There has been a lot of father killing going on in Lost - Ben kills his Dad, Kate kills hers, and Locke gets sawyer to kill his.<br /><br />One thing I've wondered is why Sun is along for the ride? Why was ghost Christian telling her to wait for Locke (not locke as it turned out)? Why did AJ (not locke) bother about her coming along at all? What has she got to do with anything?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-6673288278199249372009-05-16T15:07:00.000-04:002009-05-16T15:07:00.000-04:00Vic, I wasn't directing my comments towards you. ...Vic, I wasn't directing my comments towards you. Do you really think it's necessary to see the characters bruise? There are some stupid complaints about the show in here that are beyond nitpicking on the story of the show.<br /><br />I'm all for discussion on theories and such even if I think you guys take yourself way too serious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-63334340952643576772009-05-16T10:17:00.000-04:002009-05-16T10:17:00.000-04:00Jim wrote:
>>But wouldn't an H-bomb, lik...Jim wrote:<br />>>But wouldn't an H-bomb, like, blow up the whole island? At the very least, we wouldn't be seeing any Dharma instructional vids with the one-armed Chang, him being a pile of ash and all.>><br /><br />Two possibilities, based on what we know about the show:<br /><br />A) The H-bomb *didn't* blow up the whole island, as the H-bomb always went off in the first place. The losties were always in the Dharma initiative in 1977, Jack always tried to circumvent The Incident with an H-bomb, and the H-bomb always went off (which may very well have been The Incident in the first place). 'Cause what happened happened.<br /><br />B) Farriday was correct, you can change the future and your destiny, and setting off the H-bomb acts as a history reset button--if the H-bomb foils The Incident, there is no hatch, there is no button, there is no Desmond failing to press it, the plane doesn't crash, and the losties never end up on the island in the first place.<br /><br />The problem with scenario (B) is the old "what happens if I go back in time and kill my grandparents" problem--if Jack prevents The Incident with the H-bomb, then Jack never goes back in time to prevent The Incident with the H-bomb.<br /><br />Scenario (A), on the other hand, is supported by what already happened on the show (see: Little Ben getting not saved by Jack--by not saving Little Ben in an attempt to have him die and not be what he is in the future, Jack just made him exactly what he is in the future). And is supported by what happened in the episode (see: Chang getting his arm destroyed). And is supported by what Miles said in the episode as they were on their way to drop the bomb ("Does it occur to any of you that in trying to stop The Incident, you 'guys will just cause it in the first place?")<br /><br />So while there is a possibility that Fariday was correct, and Jack's single minded faith that setting off the bomb would change the future and save them all, all indications are that this won't be the case.<br /><br />And as a result, the island that they land on in the first episode is an island where an H-bomb very well might have exploded in 1977, and it didn't destroy everything. So something other than a run of the mill H-bomb explosion happened when Juliette hit the bomb.bakijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11357029145748622693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-51062255147943206352009-05-16T00:45:00.000-04:002009-05-16T00:45:00.000-04:00We don't know what impact an H-bomb would have whe...We don't know what impact an H-bomb would have when it interacts with the electromagnetic energy that the Incident was releasing. Nor do we know that the bomb did not go off the first time around: What evidence have we seen that the Lostaways' presence in 1977 has changed anything?Matter-Eater Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07582100232490047227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-8244489289422110052009-05-15T23:10:00.000-04:002009-05-15T23:10:00.000-04:00I can't speak for Matter-Eater Lad, but I think he...<I>I can't speak for Matter-Eater Lad, but I think he means that there's no reason to believe that whatever happened with the h-bomb is whatever happened with the h-bomb the "first" time around.</I>But wouldn't an H-bomb, like, blow up the whole island? At the very least, we wouldn't be seeing any Dharma instructional vids with the one-armed Chang, him being a pile of ash and all.jim treacherhttp://jimtreacher.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-28369483878896124332009-05-15T17:40:00.000-04:002009-05-15T17:40:00.000-04:00I believe that the Jacob we see in the flashbacks ...I believe that the Jacob we see in the flashbacks is not Jacob but rather the same entity that appeared as Locke. This entity being the man on the beach with Jacob at the beginning of the show.<br /><br />In the flashbacks the false Jacob ensures that everything falls into motion for Ben to kill the real Jacob. As he said "You have no idea what I have been through." He does it all without interferring with free will. That is the loop hole, the real Jacob must be killed by the humans own free will. <br /><br />One key point is that when the false Jacob talks to Hurley he says "it's up to you". In each flashback and in Locke's conversation with Ben he never told him he had to do it.. he simply guided them.<br /><br />It's the battle between free will and destiny. Evil is a neccesary by-product of free will, because a world with evil is better then a world without free will. <br /><br />-2centsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-43491604477145906262009-05-15T17:30:00.000-04:002009-05-15T17:30:00.000-04:00Hobbs wrote:
>>I agree. We had the same reac...Hobbs wrote:<br />>>I agree. We had the same reaction that it looked like the wrong era for a young Juliet. Maybe this implies that Juliet is not exactly where/when we think she's from?>><br /><br />Heh. I'm inclined to think that it is just a production gaff rather than an intentional implication of anything (much like the condition of the compass in the season premier :-)bakijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11357029145748622693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-75898821109023959132009-05-15T16:45:00.000-04:002009-05-15T16:45:00.000-04:00so...they totally set up Juliet to be the token de...so...they totally set up Juliet to be the token death all episode. Long looks back at the departing sub...looking dazed leaving the Bernard/Rose household. she was clutching her belly, and i thought they were going to have an I'm Pregnant! moment before she kicked but they weren't that cruel.<br /><br />Also I was not surprised to see that the mcguffin was locke's body, even though they took pains to disguise it with the huge box it was in.<br /><br />Are we sure that the jacob who went and corrected the O6 is really jacob? because he seems to have put all the pieces in motion to cause his own undoing. So perhaps this is all part of the plan.<br /><br />Kicking Jacob (who is clearly not all dead) into the fire - did he seem to catch fire instantly as though he was made of supernatural?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03637630350089393979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-36490534140914359962009-05-15T16:15:00.000-04:002009-05-15T16:15:00.000-04:00Thanks Linda....now I don't have to finish reading...Thanks Linda....now I don't have to finish reading the Dark Tower series...<br /><br />But on a serious note: How many times have Lost and BSG been synching up? Dead people wandering around, the emergence of--or at least more validated presence of-- a supernatural being that has brought them to their current path, their destiny, if you will. What i really want the ultimate finale to be is Baltar, Caprica, Jacob and Man #2 chilling out, discussing how much fun they had messin' with mortals.<br /><br />Oh, and Linda, i was never going to get around to reading King anyway. Only book of his I read was the Hard Case Crime novel a few years back, I like how i have ignored that which has made him most famous.7s Timnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-66467123874802195382009-05-15T15:02:00.000-04:002009-05-15T15:02:00.000-04:00"some kind of Aslan stunt"
This phrase is as evoc..."some kind of Aslan stunt"<br /><br />This phrase is as evocative as it is amusing. You're so right--Jacob's demeanor in the scene with Ben was downright Aslanian.christynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-48271219770138424392009-05-15T15:01:00.000-04:002009-05-15T15:01:00.000-04:00The ABC episode recap lists Man #2 as "The Man in ...<B>The ABC episode recap lists Man #2 as "The Man in Black." I think we should all be calling him Johnny from now on :-)</B>"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."<br />The first - and last - lines of Stephen King's Dark Tower series.LinGinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161369969301421756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-32554108751761840802009-05-15T13:43:00.000-04:002009-05-15T13:43:00.000-04:00"4. juliette's flashback was used to show that jac..."4. juliette's flashback was used to show that jacob didn't visit her, as opposed to all the others, possibly hinting to her death (she is not a pivotal character in the big plan), and if nothing else, to display a book called "mysteries of the ancient world" somewhere in the background"<br />------------------------------<br />i think Juliet flashback says more about her emotional reaction to sawyer in two scenes that changed her mindset. <br />first on the sub when sawyer said " i made my decison" and she said "WE!"<br /><br />then when sawyer glances at kate, breaking Juliets heart for good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-14625919051972853592009-05-15T13:39:00.000-04:002009-05-15T13:39:00.000-04:00to me Richards role is most interesting.
How did h...to me Richards role is most interesting.<br />How did he become such a servant? and who does he actually serve? the story indicates that he's a faithful servant of jacob. seems unlikely to me.<br /><br />it may be that he was making it up all along. handing ben notes that supposedly jacob wrote?<br /><br />How did Ben actually become the leader? <br />and why would they follow Locke, if richard could have asked Jacob what was up?<br />is it possible that Richard hasnt seen Jacob himself in a very long time?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-14822768579362032882009-05-15T12:33:00.000-04:002009-05-15T12:33:00.000-04:00Wow! I am overwhelmed by the amount of thoughtful...Wow! I am overwhelmed by the amount of thoughtful insight here.<br /><br />That was such a spectacularly entertaining episode, so full of awesomeness... really, back when this show started, I never thought I'd be analyzing the symbolism and dualities the show presented with anything close to the fine-toothed comb that it now seems to require! Props to Cuse and Lindelof.<br /><br />I must say that, I'm with Toby O'B (also, with Todd from THND) - my favorite part was when Sawyer kicked Jack in the balls. Ha! It was like they asked me, personally, what I wanted to see most in the season finale.<br /><br />I even put together a <A HREF="http://murfinsandburglars.com/2009/05/14/the-best-part-of-the-lost-season-finale/" REL="nofollow">screen-grab montage</A> of it that has been cracking me up all morning, and which I wanted to share.<br /><br />I'm so glad I got back into this show after skipping most of season 3. Alan, it was mainly because your season 4 posts convinced me that the show had rediscovered its mojo, so, thanks!Kirk Hamiltonhttp://murfinsandburglars.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-89104540861514243292009-05-15T11:28:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:28:00.000-04:00Charlotte? She's an anthropologist, but I don't re...<I>Charlotte? She's an anthropologist, but I don't remember her every mentioning doing work in/on Korea, so... dunno. Maybe just a coincidence, which led to that nice scene pre-dying where she warned Jin.</I>I thought Jin taught her Korean in his three years in Dharmaville?<br /><br />The ABC episode recap lists Man #2 as "The Man in Black." I think we should all be calling him Johnny from now on :-)deznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-50622987999646246242009-05-15T10:55:00.000-04:002009-05-15T10:55:00.000-04:00"We don't know what "The Incident" means when Chan..."We don't know what "The Incident" means when Chang refers to it in the Dharma videos, and we don't know yet what THIS incident entails either. So what reason is there to assume they're not exactly the same?"<br /><br />Right -- given that the 815ers and friends were the prime movers behind many of the events leading up to the Incident (the evacuation, Chang's injury, Faraday's death), why should we think the bomb is a change in the timeline? What event or action can we point to that supports the idea that the 815ers and friends have done anything different in 1977?<br /><br /><br />"Nothing but poor Faraday, desperately wishing he could take back some of the things he'd done. Nothing rational, though."<br /><br />And I'm inclined to put more stock in Faraday's judgment before Charlotte's death than after.Matter-Eater Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07582100232490047227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-45898891714698595262009-05-15T10:50:00.000-04:002009-05-15T10:50:00.000-04:00hey there, just a few thoughts i had along the way...hey there, just a few thoughts i had along the way:<br /><br />1. i really think the cabin in the jungle was initially jacob's, and what ilana meant by "somebody else has been using it" is actually that guy #2 has been using it, while using the body of christian to pose as jacob to the others (who apparently know a lot less than they pretend to) and to john as well.<br /><br />2. i think at this point a lot of people believe that adam and eve are going to turn out to be bernard and rose, and i agree with that.<br /><br />3. i think jacob went to meet sayid to distract him from nadia so she could be killed, and not to save him<br /><br />4. juliette's flashback was used to show that jacob didn't visit her, as opposed to all the others, possibly hinting to her death (she is not a pivotal character in the big plan), and if nothing else, to display a book called "mysteries of the ancient world" somewhere in the background<br /><br />5. in the surgery flashback scene, i really thought when christian made jack close his eyes it would be so that jacob could touch the girl - remember how that was always portayed as a miracle recovery, and i kept waiting for jacob to be one of the nurses and touch her while jack's eyes were closed, but it never happened, hmmm<br /><br />6. i'm not quite sure why lapidus said "terrific" when he saw locke's body - that would've been a proper reaction if he knew there was another locke walking around, but as far as he knew, in the box that could've been the locke he knew which ilana's group had killed while he was knocked outsilvia ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299220048654312994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-72973073039300890732009-05-15T09:52:00.000-04:002009-05-15T09:52:00.000-04:00It looks to me like Jacob stage-managed all the ev...It looks to me like Jacob stage-managed all the events that led up to his killing. I suspect Jacob's pulled some kind of Aslan stunt on "Esau". I think Esau's had Jacob in a weakened position, as evidenced by the wrongness of the cabin f'rinstance, and I think Jacob needed to go through a death/resurrection to regain the upper hand.Tyronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07591217842101911251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-4585693659736450642009-05-15T09:51:00.000-04:002009-05-15T09:51:00.000-04:00Alan and some people on this blog just hate Jack i...Alan and some people on this blog just hate Jack irrationally therefore you guys are not a fair judge of his actions. Alan, you finally got your chance to lay into Jack and bash him. It's fitting considering the only episode that you really panned this season was Jack centric 316. I hope you are happy. You are criticizing Jack's plan but I can guarantee if it was another character who was carrying out that plan he would be pronounced a hero but god forbid Jack tries to carry it out and he is named a jerk. Obviously Jack is not blowing up the bomb for Kate he just used that a small example to illustrate a greater point about how them never crashing would be better. Last episode Sawyer abandoned all of his friends and took off with his woman... noone here batted an eye infact there were posts about how much of a romantic hero Sawyer was. But Jack tries to do something kind even trying to save the redshirts on the plane from dying he still gets crap from everyone.SmokeMonsternoreply@blogger.com