tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post2753751851440578360..comments2024-03-28T18:01:28.997-04:00Comments on What's Alan Watching?: Doctor Who, "The Beast Below": Thar she blows!Alan Sepinwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03388147774725646742noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-37586444015839888132010-04-30T04:08:46.980-04:002010-04-30T04:08:46.980-04:00I thought Moffat was making a point of showing how...I thought Moffat was making a point of showing how Doctor Who is different than Star Trek in that there's no prime directive. The Doctor goes and gets involved whenever he wants -- drastically changing events.<br /><br />I thought that was quite clever to show the difference.<br /><br />And yes, there was a Star Wars riff as well -- with the save us, you're the only one. And the garbage disposal. But while Star Wars stayed the archetypes (the princess is good and needs help, the garbage monster is dangerous and must be stopped) on Doctor Who the princess (well, queen) is evil in her way, and the monster is heroic.<br /><br />I liked the reversals quite a lot.<br /><br />(And my DVR also messed up so I had to wait for it to get one of the many re-airings later in the week.)Tyrocnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-85871807921508593092010-04-26T18:08:08.481-04:002010-04-26T18:08:08.481-04:00@Craig Ranapia: No, you're right, in 40 years,...@Craig Ranapia: No, you're right, in 40 years, 727 episodes and a dozen or so movies I imagine Star Trek has managed to hit every cliche on the circuit and lap around again. Please don't think I'm implying Moffat or Who is cribbing its ideas from American SF or anything terrible like that. In fact, the more I think on it, the more I feel my original comment is a tribute to how much Who has stood apart from Hollywood in its ideas and inspirations. I was struck so forcibly by the (perceived) similarities between "Beast" and these bits of American SF chiefly because Who usually seems so very distinctly not-American. Its stories and its voice are distinctly, defiantly British, and that's part of its beauty. It was the strange sense of familiarity that bumped me.<br /><br />FWIW, I'm apparently not the only American to notice the similarity: http://bit.ly/bjIDjj (see the third-to-last paragraph). <br /><br />@Hunterwali: I get the Scottish home-rule wink (to the degree that an outsider only passingly familiar with the issue can get it). I just meant that, whether intended or no, the episode seemed to imply that Britain alone had trouble getting offworld and had to resort to this terrible moral compromise to survive, and then subsequently informed us that Scotland had left on its own ship. The only conclusion I could draw was that, for whatever reason, Scotland had the resources to evacuate, and it did so without assisting the English. I mean, if you want to really start chewing on it, I suppose that means the Americans (such as America exists in the 29th century) left their cross-the-pond cousins to burn as well--but nobody specifically drew attention to that fact in-episode.<br /><br />And of course you're right, Americans will be quicker to spot America than anyone else.Sara Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178920384446523847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-74435624484350317702010-04-26T09:23:16.959-04:002010-04-26T09:23:16.959-04:00-I have no idea how popular TNG is in Britain, muc...<i>-I have no idea how popular TNG is in Britain, much less whether Moffat specifically watched any particular episode--but the parallels struck me.</i><br /><br />I'm probably going to get spat on for saying this, but <i>Star Trek</i> cheerfully plundered every SF trope and cliche that wasn't nailed down -- and so it goes. Oddly enough, Moffat's said more than once that he didn't like what little TNG he's seen and watches much less television than you might think.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-13659821629544861392010-04-26T08:06:50.216-04:002010-04-26T08:06:50.216-04:00From Jan:
I'm with Rose: I like it. I thought...From Jan:<br /><br />I'm with Rose: I like it. I thought Donna was the best companion of the last Doctor seasons, but I'm really liking this team so far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-57386708885942246862010-04-26T02:22:14.900-04:002010-04-26T02:22:14.900-04:00But the biggest problem was the use of the ridicul...<i>But the biggest problem was the use of the ridiculous forget button contrivance. What's the point? </i><br /><br />For me this was far and away the best part of the episode. It's Britain and its populated by Britons and they'll be damned if they give up the precious center of western civilization: Democracy. So everyone must be able to vote on this no matter what the cost. But what a cost! They are made complicit in an extraordinary act of continual torture. The solution for reconciling the two? The forget button; the power to make an unbearable choice and then shed all responsibility. <br /><br />Amy tried to use this out: she directly asked the Doctor how he could condemn her for doing something that she doesn't even remember doing.Master Prudentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-30008739186742412032010-04-26T01:45:44.770-04:002010-04-26T01:45:44.770-04:00@Sara Ann Stinson:
Thank you for your answer. I&#...@Sara Ann Stinson: <br />Thank you for your answer. I'll admit, I still don't follow. Passing similarity to an episode of Star Trek: The New Generation is only one reference-- if a reference at all. Science Fiction over the years and across borders has shared themes and interests. Preoccupations with empire and responsibility have been those of Britain for some time. Could you maybe explain in more detail? <br /><br />As for Scotland 'holding a grudge'? Not quite. That is a misreading and an interesting one at that. All of the world was in disarray, and all 'nations' separated. The separation of Scotland from the UK here was a reference to Scotland finally achieving independence. The ongoing desire for home rule was met in part through devolution and an establishment of a Scottish Parliament in 1999 but discussions of independence persist. Not leaving to burn any more than one could claim England and Wales (and Northern Ireland?) left Scotland to burn. <br /><br />I wonder if perhaps the American flavour noted is a matter of projection.Hunterwalinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-53946395456978294002010-04-26T01:32:33.553-04:002010-04-26T01:32:33.553-04:00I thought it was better than the first ep, but sti...I thought it was better than the first ep, but still kinda crap. It started off okay, but then proceeded to fall apart. First thing that was irritating, and what RTD was rightly criticised for, was shameless stealing from well known films and pop culture, in this case from Star Wars. We had the princes Lea like plea - you're our only hope, the garbage compactor scene which morphed into the giant asteroid worm scene, teeth and all. But the biggest problem was the use of the ridiculous forget button contrivance. What's the point? In fact, what was the point of the silly dummies?<br /><br />There's only one thing I can think of and that is Moffat's insistence of picking the mundane and trying to make it scary/sinister. He did it previously with a crack in the wall and seeing things from the corner of your eye. Now we have amusement park dummies making scary faces. And in the RTD era he did it with blinking and shadows and little boys in gas masks. I'm afraid it's getting a little old.<br /><br />Another mistake was to have the cute sidekick figure out the final solution while the doctor was quite happy to take the least bad of the obvious options. It should have been he to have thought outside the box and reach a novel solution. Of course, having the stupid buttons just sitting there where anyone can push them with potentially disastrous results also beggars belief.<br /><br />I won't even mention the silliness of space whales, why they should care about aliens (humans) or their apparent means of propulsion through EMPTY space by swaying their tails!<br /><br />At this rate, RTD must be having a laugh! And the next ep is even worse!Damiennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-54386107478477311412010-04-26T01:26:20.037-04:002010-04-26T01:26:20.037-04:00HATED this episode. Everything about it rang fals...HATED this episode. Everything about it rang false, from Amy's exploration of the ship (what was her motivation to leave the child -- and her assignment -- and go behind the road block, exactly?) to the easy solution at the end. The child being "taken below" at the beginning didn't connect well to the story, as this episode's backstory seemed to be split between the people of the ship (choosing FORGET) and the torture of the star-whale. This episode was all over the map!<br /><br />I'm enjoying the Eleventh Doctor, though his behavior seems erratic -- and due to odd timing/editing and not the character itself -- but I am not sold at all on Amy. She annoys the crap out of me.Saranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-11292314204600280332010-04-26T00:57:44.219-04:002010-04-26T00:57:44.219-04:00If the whale was benevolent, why didn't it spa...<i>If the whale was benevolent, why didn't it spare EVERYONE who was fed to it?</i><br /><br />It was being tortured by the humans so it had little reason to feel charitable towards them in general - indeed it only saved them in the first place because it liked kids. (It can't have known that some of the ones being fed to it were the ones who voted no.)<br /><br /><i>What exactly WERE the Smilers and the Winders, and what purpose were they meant to serve? </i><br /><br />Mechanical guards to watch society, keep order and dispatch poor performers to the beast. Primarily there to ensure the collective conspiracy ran smoothly. You could give them a long origin story but I'm not sure that it would have been terribly interesting.<br /><br /><i>If they knew that the whale wouldn't eat kids, then why did they keep feeding kids to the whale?</i><br /><br />To keep everyone in line. To make sure that people behaved and studied for their exams.<br /><br />Admittedly none of these (aside from the winders) were directly stated in the episode and the last one is probably pure fanwank but my policy with Doctor Who is pretty lenient: Just go with the flow so long as it doesn't really stand out. Even before Moffat ran the show it was a fairy tale with copious amounts of magic and sometimes you've just got to tap the red shoes three times to go home. Why? Because those are just the rules.<br /><br />If it was hard SF or claiming to be set in the real world than I'd be a little stricter - which might explain why I was bothered that the electoral role hadn't been updated to include Amy's death. Either that or I'm just horribly inconsistent.Master Prudentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-38174674964668092822010-04-25T23:12:57.374-04:002010-04-25T23:12:57.374-04:00I'm sure a more hardcore "Who" fan c...I'm sure a more hardcore "Who" fan can correct me if I'm wrong but after the events of "The Key To Time" arc during the Tom Baker years the TARDIS was equipped with a randomizer to make it's destinations almost impossible to predict. That function may well be disabled now but the show does have a history of the TARDIS going where ever it wants to.Nathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-3022714668454732222010-04-25T23:05:21.038-04:002010-04-25T23:05:21.038-04:00@Hunterwali: I don't mean necessarily that the...@Hunterwali: I don't mean necessarily that the episode felt American so much as that the references all seemed American, like Moffat was drawing overwhelmingly on American pop culture experiences. It may all have been a confluence of coincidences--I have no idea how popular TNG is in Britain, much less whether Moffat specifically watched any particular episode--but the parallels struck me. Too early to declare it a pattern or anything. <br /><br />Meanwhile, not only does Scotland apparently have far superior resources in the distant future, but they stone-cold left England to burn. <i>That's</i> what I call holding onto a grudge.Sara Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178920384446523847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-35196229608950769732010-04-25T20:48:45.183-04:002010-04-25T20:48:45.183-04:00"Doctor Who is one of the top 3 shows in Brit..."Doctor Who is one of the top 3 shows in Britain. Currently getting about 1 in 10 of the population watching. It is incredibly popular"<br /><br />That in itself is amazing. The show began in 1963, with the long hiatus in the '90's into the new century. and at a time when scripted shows on American TV dwindling, some of the best stuff is still coming out of the UK.<br /><br />I liked the episode quite a bit, and have been an on again off again Dr. Who viewer since the Tom Baker days. <br /><br />Amy really should have remembered to take an overnight bag with her...its going to get cold running around in other galaxies in only a nightgown.Hugh Jee From Jerseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04607469531806734788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-89535054636233582892010-04-25T20:38:10.207-04:002010-04-25T20:38:10.207-04:00The special effects seem incredibly cheap (the &qu...<i>The special effects seem incredibly cheap (the "Smilers" looked like something out of the original "Twilight Zone" from half a century ago, and the "new UK" looked tiny and seemed to have about 40 people in it) -- and this can't just be an issue of money, since "Torchwood" got a lot more realism from what I'm assuming was a similar budget.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure a comparison to Torchwood is exactly fair - Torchwood doesn't need too much work to create modern-day Wales, so can focus its budget on those few moments that require effects. Doctor Who needs to create an entire futuristic city/country flying through space on the back of a giant space whale. And that's for one episode. Every one or two shows, the show goes to an entirely new world that needs to be created from scratch. (Don't forget, the only standing reuseable set on the show is the TARDIS set - a set that gets used for maybe a couple of minutes each episode.) I'm not sure what the comparable budgets of Torchwood and Doctor Who are, but Doctor Who has far and away the higher budgetary demands. Frankly, I'm always amazed at what Who manages to achieve with such budgetary constraints.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08196372589248892579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-82285515691376175092010-04-25T19:21:41.663-04:002010-04-25T19:21:41.663-04:00And what's the deal with the story lines - the...<i>And what's the deal with the story lines - the Doctor just picks a random time and place to visit each week, hangs out a while, and discovers he has to save the day yet again? </i><br /><br /><br />Pretty much yeah. we don't see every trip the tardis makes, just the more memorable ones.<br /><br />Also the common theory is that the Tardis tends to take him to times and locales where something important is happening, it sense fluctuations or something.<br /><br /><i>(And in this episode, wouldn't it have made sense, once he found out the British government had been torturing that space whale for decades, for him to go back in time a little more and stop it before it started?)</i><br /><br />That's something show at least in new incarnation has explained once he's appeared at a moment in time he becomes part of the events and cannot alter them. Think about it if he went back further to stop it from happening in the first place, there's no ship for him find at this later point. Paradox.<br /><br />Also it would make for a very boring show.<br /><br /><i>I dunno... I've liked everything else Steven Moffat has done, but here it seems like he's trying harder to carry on the traditions of a show that started in 1963 than to write one that holds up today.</i><br /><br />Doctor Who is one of the top 3 shows in Britain. Currently getting about 1 in 10 of the population watching. It is incredibly popularUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08965717916375558077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-19170975656443552252010-04-25T17:37:03.468-04:002010-04-25T17:37:03.468-04:00@Nicole: I loved that Eleven included Amy in his r...@Nicole: I loved that Eleven included Amy in his rage, but it is wrong to assume that Ten would not have done so. He had no reason to blame Donna for the Ood, or any of his former companions. Amy is the first to allow something to awful to continue and to keep vital info from the Doctor. If Amy had done it to Ten, I think he would have yelled at her just as hard. I also wonder whether Donna would have chosen to forget- I don't think she would.<br /><br />If I have any disappointment about the episode, it's about how the Doctor was willing to allow the continued torture of a being that was the last of its kind. I would have liked the episode much more if the Doctor, Amy or the Queen had made the decision to let the UK die rather than let them continue at such an expense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-8060347303865011712010-04-25T17:02:06.083-04:002010-04-25T17:02:06.083-04:00As far as run times go....I'm two weeks ahead ...As far as run times go....I'm two weeks ahead and watching the BBC versions and those run in the 41:00 minute range so I doubt if they are cutting much if anything at all.<br />Amy Pond is easily the best of the companions of the revived series and is already in my top five of all time companions. Matt Smith simply owns the role. You see more and more Patrick Troughton with each week...and that is a good thing.Nathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-91733963921189441482010-04-25T15:57:41.865-04:002010-04-25T15:57:41.865-04:00As someone who just started watching "Doctor ...As someone who just started watching "Doctor Who" last season, I have to say that I still don't really get it.<br /><br />The special effects seem incredibly cheap (the "Smilers" looked like something out of the original "Twilight Zone" from half a century ago, and the "new UK" looked tiny and seemed to have about 40 people in it) -- and this can't just be an issue of money, since "Torchwood" got a lot more realism from what I'm assuming was a similar budget.<br /><br />And what's the deal with the story lines - the Doctor just picks a random time and place to visit each week, hangs out a while, and discovers he has to save the day yet again? (And in this episode, wouldn't it have made sense, once he found out the British government had been torturing that space whale for decades, for him to go back in time a little more and stop it before it started?) <br /><br />I dunno... I've liked everything else Steven Moffat has done, but here it seems like he's trying harder to carry on the traditions of a show that started in 1963 than to write one that holds up today.BigTednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-36619534824006996332010-04-25T15:38:48.198-04:002010-04-25T15:38:48.198-04:00@Sara Ann Stinson:
Could you explain a bit more w...@Sara Ann Stinson:<br /><br />Could you explain a bit more what you mean by this American flavour? I have to say, watching it here in the UK, I didn't pick up the connection at all. But then, I've been more preoccupied by the growing Scottish presence in these episodes, including the nice bit about Scotland having their own ship.(Not surprising, of course, what with Moffat being Scottish.)Hunterwalinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-1575353665159515272010-04-25T13:31:05.858-04:002010-04-25T13:31:05.858-04:00Ten got mad at what humans did, but Eleven was inc...Ten got mad at what humans did, but Eleven was including Amy in his anger, which is not something he did with other companions. Ten ranted about the treatment of the Ood to Donna, but wasn't blaming her as well. What Eleven isn't putting Amy on a pedestal as separate from the other humans.Nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11317568565085893849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-23715602210944018212010-04-25T13:29:20.234-04:002010-04-25T13:29:20.234-04:00@tique107, both serious and sarcastic. I do enjoy ...@tique107, both serious and sarcastic. I do enjoy Moffat's writing and admire his originality, I was just startled by a strong sense of deja vu last night. I suppose, too, I was startled by the American-ness of the sources. Doctor Who is so very British (and under the previous administration, at least, its overt references to America have always been rather awkward and at least a touch defensive). It was weird to see an episode that, apparently absolute monarchy aside, felt so American at its core. Is that a coincidence, a tribute to the pervasiveness of American pop culture (did everyone else notice the commercials for Star Trek: TNG on BBCA during the breaks?), or is Moffat's Who going to take on a more American flavor underneath all the yay-rah UK nationalism? <br /><br />And yeah, now that you mention it, I can totally see the Tin Man parallel.Sara Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178920384446523847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-62954450585862011122010-04-25T12:47:32.069-04:002010-04-25T12:47:32.069-04:00Can't decide if Sara Ann Stinsons' comment...Can't decide if Sara Ann Stinsons' comments are more serious or sarcastic. Do you like Moffats' writing or not,Sara?<br /><br />In any case,I saw more similarity with TNG " TIN MAN " episode. As a fan of Moffat, ( Jekyll, Blink, & Coupling in particular ),this was,to me, below par.<br /><br />Look forward to efforts of writers hired by SM, much as he was by RTD.tique107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-82556646293218928552010-04-25T11:48:58.488-04:002010-04-25T11:48:58.488-04:00@ingrid, my DVR also messed up. The Fios schedule...@ingrid, my DVR also messed up. The Fios schedule had last week's Doctor Who from 8:30-9:30, then this week's new episode from 9:30-10:00.<br /><br />I realized this at about 9:05 so I only missed the first few minutes.<br /><br />Did this happen to anyone else?Larry Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-83707923106634838372010-04-25T11:28:46.811-04:002010-04-25T11:28:46.811-04:00I agree with @belinda: the parallels between the s...I agree with @belinda: the parallels between the star whale and the Doctor was made a little more anvillicious than I thought it needed to be. It was more than clear by the time Amy got around to saying, "Remind you of anyone?" OK, OK, we get it!<br /><br />That being said, this was a wonderfully Moffat-y episode. The Smilers were as terrifying as the clockmen from Girl in the Fireplace or the weeping angels. He really knows how to scare our inner child, doesn't he? <br /><br />Amy goes from strength to strength and Eleven is starting to grow on me. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the season.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01288100796201737845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-5926494018552269922010-04-25T11:26:54.626-04:002010-04-25T11:26:54.626-04:00I'm kind of surprised by how much I like the s...I'm kind of surprised by how much I like the series right off the bat. I think part of that is that they're giving Karen Gillan such a strong presence. I always liked the Doctor's other companions, but they tended to be more followers along for the ride trying to figure things out. Amy has her own initiative and confidence leading her to make her own decisions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-57681567926247500322010-04-25T10:58:48.101-04:002010-04-25T10:58:48.101-04:00@Jeff W: It has been announced that both Smith and...@Jeff W: It has been announced that both Smith and Gillan have been signed for a second series in 2011. Yay!CTTSnoreply@blogger.com