tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post383769569179863585..comments2024-03-25T19:18:14.047-04:00Comments on What's Alan Watching?: Dollhouse, "The Hollow Men": An excitable BoydAlan Sepinwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03388147774725646742noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-91372169065518081352010-01-19T23:56:46.349-05:002010-01-19T23:56:46.349-05:00Hatfield : I also didn't like how they killed ...Hatfield : I also didn't like how they killed Boyd ("didn't like" as in I disagree with the characters doing it, I actually like that <i>the show</i> went there). Because Boyd died when he got wiped; what they actually killed was a doll, and those are innocence and trust personified. Sending one to kill itself would have been utterly abhorrent to all the other characters... but this one looked like Boyd so it was okay.Caravellenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-73070180070938022832010-01-19T23:50:44.618-05:002010-01-19T23:50:44.618-05:00fgmerchant (and others) : I'm in two minds abo...fgmerchant (and others) : <i>I'm in two minds about Rossum. Boyd, while evil and a murderer, also wanted to create a vaccine to stop people from being wiped. Makes you wonder if they had let him create the vaccine, maybe the Thoughtpocalypse would never have come!</i><br /><br />Boyd wanted a vaccine so that he (and a few chosen friends) could be immune to the technology he was going to use to take over the world. That's not being good, that's being non-stupid. He was still going to deploy the tech in the first place.<br /><br />One could argue that the tech's invention was inevitable anyway - and in the real world this tends to be true, but in the Dollhouse world it's pretty clear that tech is completely out of the mainstream and existing only because of the very directed efforts of Rossum and a few super-geniuses.Caravellenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-35611946243524833792010-01-19T18:19:14.087-05:002010-01-19T18:19:14.087-05:00Oh no, Boyd being killed is fine, necessary unders...Oh no, Boyd being killed is fine, necessary understandable.<br /><br />It's HOW they did it which troubles me, not in a plot way but in an ethical treatment way.<br /><br />Mercy is the sign of an honorable man. I'm not sure we can say Echo is even just all right after that.<br /><br />-EmeraldLizAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-31880566068667820332010-01-19T14:40:55.494-05:002010-01-19T14:40:55.494-05:00Just curious, EmeraldLiz, why did it bother you so...Just curious, EmeraldLiz, why did it bother you so much that they killed Boyd? I'd say he earned itHatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184680741873873714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-6502616901716119112010-01-19T11:06:04.895-05:002010-01-19T11:06:04.895-05:00I agree that while the changeovers made some sense...I agree that while the changeovers made some sense, it was definitely rushed and forced- there really was no reason for Boyd to take anyone but Topher along. Except that he's pretty darn insane.<br /><br />Perhaps Echos Super Juice will be the savior of humanity? Like the Special Scythe in Buffy, distribute the power to everyone and it works.<br /><br />Amy Acker is again totally amazing and I felt more for her character this episode than anyone- she's the literal doll here, used and abused and tossed around, risen to number one, replaced and forced to be an ineffectual doctor with a hatred of her creator, theoretically freed only as part of a larger game of manipulation. The only reason Clyde would have chosen that body is to gain an emotional edge over the gang.<br /><br />I'm also VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with how they dealt with Boyd. I know they feel like they are fighting a war and casualties are part of that war, but they didn't just knock him out and leave him to die, they intentionally set him up helpless and unwillingly to choose to kill himself. That's as bad as any of the Dollhouse stuff and at least they got consent of the dolls first.<br /><br />-EmeraldLizAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-80833207271837397822010-01-18T20:35:53.577-05:002010-01-18T20:35:53.577-05:00At the end of the episode (before the flash-forwar...At the end of the episode (before the flash-forward) I turned to my husband, "And now they have to kill Topher, obviously." (Since he's the one with the tech know-how in his head.) <br /><br />The whole ep felt very uneven to me, like they were racing toward a conclusion and were going to get there come hell or high water.<br /><br />Enver as Fran: always a plus!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11362935855222126965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-36490859564602782752010-01-18T19:33:36.804-05:002010-01-18T19:33:36.804-05:00@Peter D Bakija
Thanks for connecting that Boyd w...@Peter D Bakija<br /> Thanks for connecting that Boyd wanted to get the anti-wiping juice from Echo's spine with how he wants to maintain control in the apocalypse. I missed that connection and makes Boyd make a lot more sense.<br /><br />However, I don't buy it because it does not fit with the themes of the show. The main theme I saw and loved was the one of individual consciousness and the power of self/will to power. Alpha is the same as Echo. I believe that Madeline's consciousness made her not kill Paul. The idea of rising consciousness was driving the show (The Matrix being an influence). Topher remarking that the body is just hardware and software was to me to demonstrate how little he understood about humanity.<br /><br />I don't buy this whole explanation of anti-wiping midichlorian juice.Tausif Khannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-54715582290491298342010-01-18T01:20:02.324-05:002010-01-18T01:20:02.324-05:00Peter D. Bakija said: "So the Clyde inhabitin...<i>Peter D. Bakija said: "So the Clyde inhabiting Whiskey is an evil refit of Clyde, and the Clyde in the Attic is the actual Clyde. Reasonable."</i><br /><br />What's so great is that insane scenario actually is "reasonable" for this show. Love it!Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13033518419347521623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-5203797865968909432010-01-17T15:03:21.051-05:002010-01-17T15:03:21.051-05:00Stephen wrote:
>>this is actually spelled ou...Stephen wrote:<br />>>this is actually spelled out in "The Attic": Clyde mentions that when he was put in the attic, the then un-named co-founder of Rossum created a Clyde 2.0>><br /><br />Oh, ok, that makes sense. Yeah, it seemed likely that rewatching The Attic would have had a reasonable chance of answering my confusion. So the Clyde inhabiting Whiskey is an evil refit of Clyde, and the Clyde in the Attic is the actual Clyde. Reasonable.<br /><br />In a mostly unconnected analysis, it seems as if Boyd's plan all along was:<br /><br />A) Make Caroline a doll. As she had special biology. And turning her into a doll would develop this special biology.<br /><br />B) Watch over the development of Echo as a doll, as due to her special biology, every time she was imprinted, she became more and more immune to being imprinted. To this end, Boyd posed as a handler to make sure everything went according to plan.<br /><br />C) When Echo developed the optimal biology (which could only happen as the result of being imprinted over and over again over a period of time), she would be harvested for the purposes of making a vaccine that prevented being mind wiped. Presumably so that Boyd and his selected circle could become immune to the inevitable thoughtpocalypse, preserving some amount of society.<br /><br />Check. So I'm ok with that. That being said, the episode itself seemed a tad rushed (understandably) and left a considerable amount of things hanging (i.e. why did Saunders kill River? If she was doing so under orders from Boyd, that makes limited sense, as Boyd seemed invested in his tech people [see: how he dealt with Topher]; if she did it just to punish Topher, why not just kill Topher?; How does Whiskey end up with a healed face and left as a messenger? When does Reed Diamond get out of the Attic--like, they got him out last episode, which made sense storyline wise, but then they put him back in. Wha?)<br /><br />Well, at least I'm looking forward to Epitaph II: Electric Boogaloo.bakijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11357029145748622693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-56378418434600657092010-01-17T12:52:08.215-05:002010-01-17T12:52:08.215-05:00Peter Bakija: this is actually spelled out in &quo...Peter Bakija: this is actually spelled out in "The Attic": Clyde mentions that when he was put in the attic, the then un-named co-founder of Rossum created a Clyde 2.0, with the original Clyde's memories & skills, but with some character traits (the ones that would hinder the co-founder's plans) stripped out -- a loyal version of Clyde. We saw this Clyde 2.0 in a different body in the flashback at the end of last week's episode ("Getting Closer"), too, where he mentions he's used a lot of bodies. So this, at least, is consistent.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16524368948187746248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-91251224720416242622010-01-17T12:24:09.886-05:002010-01-17T12:24:09.886-05:00So I should probably go back and rewatch The Attic...So I should probably go back and rewatch The Attic to have this make more sense, as I'm probably just confused, but:<br /><br />Wasn't Clyde, the second Rossum founder the guy who was trapped in the Attic, trying to kill off the main frame/attic/matrix system from inside? And if so, why on the outside, was he both still there and still evil? Was that throw away line from Amy Acker about "some version of me is stuck in the attic" at attempt to reconcile this questionable plot thread?bakijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11357029145748622693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-50484235632013263772010-01-17T12:13:31.918-05:002010-01-17T12:13:31.918-05:00Epitaph II: Back in Action!
Epitaph II: The Return...Epitaph II: Back in Action!<br />Epitaph II: The Return of Echo<br />Epitaph II: Echo Strikes Back<br />Epitaph II: The Final InsultOur Gratitude Journalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12736007226974027673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-18448214386545725892010-01-17T07:55:06.297-05:002010-01-17T07:55:06.297-05:00It's not EPITAPH TWO: THE SQUEAKQUEL, it's...It's not EPITAPH TWO: THE SQUEAKQUEL, it's EPITAPH TWO: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO.<br /><br />Don't let the Chipmunks win! For God's sake DON'T LET THE CHIPMUNKS WIN! KEEP WATCHING THE SKIES! KEEP WATCHING THE SKIES!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-15781487739861305132010-01-17T05:40:25.505-05:002010-01-17T05:40:25.505-05:00@Drifter I read somewhere (Maurissa's twitter,...@Drifter I read somewhere (Maurissa's twitter, I think) that there were massive budget cuts on S2. This is probably why the ep looked as it did. Also, a great deal of S2 was shot digitally.<br /><br />Damn you, FOX.Corinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06295428044689373284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-44116358407294259092010-01-17T04:28:02.462-05:002010-01-17T04:28:02.462-05:00I agree that the compressed time frame finally got...I agree that the compressed time frame finally got in the way of the story. They just didn't have enough time to fully engage both the plot and the implications it brings up.<br /><br />Turns out things were pretty simple:<br /><br />1) Boyd has always been the Rossum founder (and definitely not a Doll, and it also doesn't look like he followed the Clyde 2.0 download/dump a body cycle). After Caroline started her anti-Rossum campaign, they (very illegally) looked at her medical test results, saw that she was special, and when they finally captured her, used their leverage to make her a Doll so they could see what happened.<br /><br />2) Boyd's ultimate goal was to invent a vaccine, but to reserve it for himself and his "family" and elite friends. His speech suggested he wouldn't actively bring about the thoughtpocalypse (perfect portmanteau!), but was ready for it to happen.<br /><br />3) Boyd decided the best way to do this was stick Caroline in the LA Dollhouse, protect her as her handler, and see what developed. It's unclear if Rossum's other senior leaders (Keith Carradine, etc) were ever involved, but it doesn't seem like it.<br /><br />Some implications:<br /><br />-- Boyd may not be a 10 on the Evil scale, but he's very close. His speech suggests he wouldn't wipe the world himself, but he regarded it as inevitable - and even so, if it happened in his lifetime the technology would have to come from Rossum, so he's pretty culpable.<br /><br />-- I see some underlying logic to Boyd developing Echo and the vaccine mostly in secret, where he had control as her handler and could avoid the possibility of being assassinated/losing control of Rossum and the vaccine to someone like Clyde 2.0 or another exec. But yeah, his endgame plan to allow Adelle's crew to enter Rossum HQ, clear out the guards, and then think he could almost single-handedly control the outcome was arrogantly stupid. Between that and the messianic Noah's Arc welcoming of doomsday, he smacked of a 60s Bond villain.<br /><br />-- However, Boyd's wipe and the two-way nature of his bond with Echo turning him into a willing suicide bomber was a deliciously and savagely ironic ending for him, in the finest Twilight Zone style.<br /><br />-- Caroline/Echo is special because of some unique genetic trait, but she wouldn't be the world's savior without developing the ability to composite. I like that the compositing was still a key element, but I agree it feels a little silly to have it come down to a spinal tap. I was hoping she could somehow develop the ability to resurrect a wiped mind's original personality or something along those lines.<br /><br />-- OK, so when Topher wipes Boyd and the good guys are back on top, the two keys that could save humanity are the already drawn spinal fluid, and Echo's body. So their response is to blow up the first and put the second in danger by making her last out of an exploding building?<br /><br />-- If anyone should have been last out it was Paul, because Mellie/Madeline's death is on his (and Adelle's) hands. So they rescue her from the DC Dollhouse, only to resurrect her as a Doll personality, not her real self, and then bring her into an extremely dangerous situation? Reprehensible.<br /><br />Despite some flaws, it's been a great run. Can't wait for the finale!Number Fivenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-88777142514954030072010-01-17T02:00:22.276-05:002010-01-17T02:00:22.276-05:00Am I the only one who felt like the show is fallin...Am I the only one who felt like the show is falling apart in this final stretch when it comes to production values? The fight scene between Echo and Dr. Saunders was incompetently filmed and edited. Amidst the million quick cuts there were numerous parts where the geography of who was where in the scene became confused and there was no continuity in some parts.<br /><br />Also the blowing up the building scene was amateurish. Aside from it making no sense that our heroes evacuated the personnel of the corporation they're trying to destroy, they then stood and watched the building "blow up" a good 10 feet away from it. Thankfully there was no sign of external damage in the explosion, so why bother evacuating the people? Even worse - Echo's dramatic run down the hall with the explosions behind her cuts to a next shot of her already standing outside the building. I don't remember the last time I saw such shoddy directing/editing in primetime network TV.<br /><br />On a positive note - the actors who play Victor and Sierra seem to be the breakout talents from the show that I'm most interested in seeing more of in years to come.Drifternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-83922137817699825042010-01-16T23:38:11.417-05:002010-01-16T23:38:11.417-05:00The oft-quoted end of the poem "The Hollow Me...The oft-quoted end of the poem "The Hollow Men":<br /><br />This is the way the world ends<br />This is the way the world ends<br />This is the way the world ends<br />Not with a bang but a whimper.<br /><br /><br />Considering the episode ended with a bang, after all the talk about the end of the world and how to avert it, it makes me think that "the end of the world" is going to be explained by a revelation of a small detail that occurred just off camera -- the whimper. Something similar to how last week expanded on the whole "if I stay here, we both get pinched" thing with Caroline and Bennett. I actually have a specific theory, but I'll keep it to myself, in case it would be spoilery.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00100737238679490805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-16921712600129717512010-01-16T22:37:07.059-05:002010-01-16T22:37:07.059-05:00The only problems I had with the episode was with ...The only problems I had with the episode was with Fox. I don't blame Whedon or any of the cast. It's not their fault.<br /><br />I'll probably cry like a friggin' baby when the finale airs. I was an avid fan from the series premiere. I've been watching it religiously. Topher is phenomenal, and, yeah, okay, I will cry.<br /><br />It's not fair... :( They wipe all the good science fiction out before it gets a chance to play through the way it should and at a normal pace. Damn Fox Network.Christina Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09801281510831289238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-24793458316010115492010-01-16T21:20:08.262-05:002010-01-16T21:20:08.262-05:00Boyd wanted the vaccine so he and his chosen few c...Boyd wanted the vaccine so he and his chosen few could be safe from being wiped, not to prevent the Thoughtpocalypse. As he said, he wanted immortality. Implant his personality into a slave body, take the vaccine to make it permanent (or, more specifically, read-only), repeat as necessary forever.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10936676529571544101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-36794422445341904042010-01-16T19:47:01.927-05:002010-01-16T19:47:01.927-05:00Boyd being left behind to blow up the Rossum mainf...Boyd being left behind to blow up the Rossum mainframe struck me as a strange inversion of Miles Dyson in the Cyberdyne building. Especially with this episode, comparisons between the tech and nuclear technology were hard to avoid.<br /><br />I wish that Boyd's master plan was explained a little better, because I wasn't too clear on the extent of his involvement in Rossum's more odious activities. Throughout the latter part of the episode, I kept thinking back to what Adelle said to Echo about idealists. Clarifying what was meant by "deserving few" would've gone a long way to solidifying how evil I consider Boyd to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-1112559324845106272010-01-16T19:33:20.982-05:002010-01-16T19:33:20.982-05:00Appropos of nothing, between this episode and the ...Appropos of nothing, between this episode and <a href="http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-i-met-your-mother-turns-100.html" rel="nofollow">the "HIMYM" 100th</a>, it occurs to me it's been a big week for women in suits on TV.Alan Sepinwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03388147774725646742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-23239689885940192712010-01-16T18:46:35.204-05:002010-01-16T18:46:35.204-05:00In response to "fgmerchant":
While the i...In response to "fgmerchant":<br />While the idea of Mellie resisting seemed odd to me at first, I then realized that this was not the usual scenario of her being mindwhiped. This was responding to an extra bit of sleep programming: the Mellie programming would still be there. More bothersome to me was the fact that she came with them to Rossum at all.Billiamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-60048766597237168062010-01-16T17:45:35.921-05:002010-01-16T17:45:35.921-05:00Disliked the Boyd character arc. Having Paul be t...Disliked the Boyd character arc. Having Paul be the mole would have been much more palatable.<br /><br />Knowing the outcome in Epitaph 1 there was no tension in this one.<br /><br />Episode fail.OldDarthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-58076136803220244532010-01-16T16:58:18.276-05:002010-01-16T16:58:18.276-05:00I'm in two minds about Rossum. Boyd, while evi...I'm in two minds about Rossum. Boyd, while evil and a murderer, also wanted to create a vaccine to stop people from being wiped. Makes you wonder if they had let him create the vaccine, maybe the Thoughtpocalypse would never have come!<br /><br />The whole, "You are still in there" moments seemed totally false to me. If that had happened to Echo, I might have believed trying that to stop a doll, but the others are full on Dolls that can NOT revert their programming just because they have feelings or are "still in there".<br /><br />I didn't like the flash forward scene, seemed a little too on the nose to me. I agree with Anonymous@2:38, seeing the wiping gun just lying the wreckage waiting to be found or seeing someone pick it up would have been much better.fgmerchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810080679098585277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17517257.post-44253899705504328892010-01-16T16:47:46.321-05:002010-01-16T16:47:46.321-05:00Amidst all the action and tragedy, this episode su...Amidst all the action and tragedy, this episode sure had some great whit like "What did I miss?" and that wonderful exchange between Topher and Adele:<br /><br />Topher: “I did this. I’m the one who brings about the thoughtpocalypse.”<br /><br />Adelle: “Thoughtpocalypse?”<br /><br />Topher: “Is brainpocalypse better? I figure, if I’m responsible for the end of the world, I get to name it.”Billiamnoreply@blogger.com