Spoilers for tonight's "Lost" coming up just as soon as I try the dipping sauces..."Because, Sayid, to put it simply: you're capable of things that most other men aren't. Every choice you've made in your life -- whether it was to murder or to torture -- it hasn't really been a choice at all, has it? It's in your nature. It's what you are. You're a killer, Sayid." -Ben"He's Our You" was, in many ways, our first old-school "Lost" episode of the season. Where most other episodes have either featured lots of time travel, or two distinct storylines involving characters on the island versus those in the real world, this reverts to the original model of a story on the island where one character's struggle (in this case, Sayid's) is illuminated by flashbacks from their life on the mainland.
Of course, the show and its characters have been through enough changes that we could get a relatively traditional episode where the flashbacks all take place after the crash of Oceanic 815, while the "present-day" scenes are in 1977, but this was structured similarly to a first season episode, down to the potentially stunning moment at the end, when Sayid calmly put a bullet in the chest of 12-year-old Ben Linus and staggered off through the jungle.
How stunning that moment was, and how impressed I was by "He's Our You," will depend on a couple of things that we won't know for another week at the earliest. First, and most obvious, is whether Sayid was able to disprove Faraday's closed-loop theory of time travel by killing someone we know to be alive 30 years in the future. The second is whether there's anything more to tell about Ben and Sayid's falling-out on the mainland.
Let's talk about the "death" of young master Linus first. If Faraday is right that the past can't be changed by anyone but Desmond, than Ben's very much alive, and the show doesn't even have to stretch that much to explain it. We have plenty of past evidence (Locke and Christian's resurrections, Michael's failed suicide attempts) that the island has the power to raise the dead and/or prevent the deaths of people it has a use for. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see, early next week, young Ben getting up in amazement, then reveling in the realization that he was "special" and chosen by the island for some great purpose. And if the closed loop then keeps spinning, then the Ben who "meets" Sayid in season two remembers him well as the man who tried to kill him, and when he calls Sayid a killer in Santo Domingo, he's only throwing Sayid's own 30-year-old words back in his face.
But just for argument's sake -- and so far everything that's happened this season supports the closed-loop, "12 Monkeys" model, so I'm just having fun here -- what if Dan is wrong? What if Sayid really did kill Ben as a boy? Does the adult Ben lying in the Hydra infirmary in 2007 suddenly vanish? Does he become a walking paradox? Are we going to deal with the creation of multiple, alternate timelines, where everything the Lostaways do back in the Dharma years creates a new parallel universe, each slightly different from the one before?
The latter scenario seems to fly in the face of what Cuse and Lindelof were saying before the season began -- that if the future or past can be changed, if mistakes can be corrected through time travel, then they feel the audience can't get invested in anything the characters do. (The converse of that, of course, is that if the closed-loop theory is true, then nothing the characters are doing this season, or maybe in the life of the series, matters, because it's what they were always destined to do.)
So I'm going to assume for now that young Ben dusts himself off soon and goes running to tell his eyeliner-wearing pal Richard about his brush with death. And Sayid won't have to live with the guilt of having metaphorically killed Hitler in the cradle, or even with the moral conflict of seeing Ben be abused by his father, an abuse that no doubt helped turn him into the monster Sayid knows all too well.
And that leaves me with the more vexing question: is that really all there is to their schism in the present?
Sayid's scenes with Hurley bridging the end of last season with the start of this one implied that Sayid discovered Ben had significantly betrayed him, or tricked him, or in some other way so thoroughly violated his trust that Sayid would warn Hurley to always do the opposite of what Ben says. From what we know of Ben, that's sound advice under any circumstances, but Sayid acted as if Ben had gone beyond even his usual evil machinations, or that Sayid had uncovered incontrovertible proof that Ben had played him. But all we saw here was Ben discarding Sayid after he killed all of the men allegedly loyal to Widmore -- not that we yet know who they really were and whether they posed any kind of threat to the Oceanic Six -- followed by Sayid trying to ease his killer's guilt by building houses in Santo Domingo. That doesn't seem to track with what the previous episodes implied, and if that's all there is, I feel let down. Yes, Ben has screwed the Lostaways over six ways from Sunday, but for Sayid to feel such hate for him -- to feel the need to kill him as a boy, before he's ever done anything to anyone -- he has to feel a bone-deep hatred for adult Ben, and being turned into a hired gun doesn't seem like remotely enough motivation to me.
Maybe there are other pieces to the puzzle, but if so, we're not going the episode should have more strongly implied that they were missing. And since we still need to find out how Hurley, Kate and possibly Sun wound up on Ajira 316 -- not to mention what happened to Ben at the marina and whether Desmond and Penny are okay (please please please please please) -- I doubt there's going to be an opportunity to loop back to Sayid's backstory anytime soon.
Still, it's always fun to watch Sayid run around with his license to kill, and be suave, and to suffer torture if need be, particularly with the introduction of Oldham, the Dharma bunch's own interrogation expert, and the "he" of the episode's title. William Sanderson is at least the fourth "Deadwood" alum to turn up on "Lost" (after Kim Dickens as Sawyer's baby mama Cassidy, Robin Weigert as Juliet's sister Rachel and Paula Malcomson as murdered Other Colleen Pickett), and he made a quick and memorable impression. I suspected that Sayid would wind up simply telling Horace the truth and being disbelieved, but it was still a great sequence, alternately disturbing and funny (just as Sayid found it).
Meanwhile, after dominating the last few episodes, Sawyer takes a bit of a backseat. He's still prominent, trying to work around the Dharma folk to save Sayid, while also dealing with the complication of his ex-girlfriend turning up just as he had gotten used to his new special lady(*), but "He's Our You" was a reminder that the series hadn't suddenly turned into "Everybody Loves LaFleur."
(*) Quick straw poll: I know there are (or were) Kate/Sawyer fans, but after the last few episodes, how many people actually want Sawyer to leave Juliet for Freckles? And how many people groaned when Sawyer turned left from his front door to try to catch up with Kate?
Some other thoughts on "He's Our You":
• Some of you complained last week that, upon returning to the island, the characters are once again doing a terrible job of sharing information. Last week, Kate, Hurley and Jack somehow hung around on a cliff with Jin for 20 minutes without telling him his wife was on their plane, and here Jack and Kate apparently spent the night in the same bungalow without Kate mentioning that their respective exes shacked up while they were gone.
• Have we ever seen the adult Ben use the move he was so impressed to see Sayid use to take down Jin?
• Am I the only one who briefly wondered if the much-talked-about Oldham would turn out to be Faraday?
• The more I see of Radzinsky, the more I begin to wonder if he actually committed suicide in the Swan, or if Inman blew his partner's brains out just to shut him up.
• Radzinsky makes a reference to calling Ann Arbor for guidance on what to do with Sayid. Lostpedia tells me that Dharma co-founders the DeGroots attended the University of Michigan.
• Who wants to begin analyzing the meaning of Ben trying to give Sayid a copy of Carlos Castaneda's "A Separate Reality"? Should we take that as a sign that Sayid might have actually killed Ben?
As always, let me remind you of two basic rules around here: 1)No spoilers (which includes the previews for next week, interviews, things you've read/heard elsewhere, etc.), and 2)Make an effort to read all the comments before yours so you're not repeating a point that's already been made as if you're the first person in the world who ever had this thought. If you can't exercise the proper level of restraint and/or consideration for others, your comment's getting deleted.
With that in mind, what did everybody else think?
163 comments:
It was really nice how the opening echoed Mr. Eko's childhood. A really solid episode with a great twist. And Hurley was great.
I concur with you on this one, Alan - that final scene was a definite shocker, but its real impact depends on what we see in the future.
I admittedly didn't get to any of the concerns about the simplicity of Ben/Sayid's troubles in my own review, and looking back you're right: we're missing something, and I think you're right that it just might not be out there to find. I can understand why the short hand considering what else needs to be accomplished, but still.
I'm less concerned with what they do with Ben - it's too early for Ben to run off to the Others anyways, so likely Sayid's role was to scare Roger into being a father for a few more years, and to keep Ben away from them until the time is right. The island's healing powers are more than likely going to play a role, and having a surgeon aboard 316 was probably helpful as well.
I really hope they stick with the 12 monkey's formula, because it is a much more clever and difficult manner of storytelling. Every piece has to fit, and there is little room for cheating. If we end up with multiple timelines, well frankly, it becomes a lot less interesting because nothing really matters.
Also, the kid playing Ben was great. He really sold himself as Ben, and I totally believed that he could grow into Michael Emerson.
This episode was sort of spoiled for me - if you read the TV guide blurbs for Next week episode it won't be hard to figure out how - so I didn't view the ending as a shocking twist, but as the horrible culmination of 5 years of character development.
I compare this episode to "The Economist" and especially "Enter 77" and I can see a real downward arc for Sayid, and I'm scared to where he may end up.
I was at first also saying "that's it?" regarding the falling out between Ben and Sayid but the more I thought about it, the more I appreciate the subtly of it.
Think about it. All his life, Sayid has been convinced he's a good man who's been pushed to torture and kill in order to get things done. He was going along with Ben's plan to be hitman extraordinaire because he thought it was for a good reason. But then, when it's over, and Ben tells him he's good at murder, Sayid is faced with a hollowness. The fact that his mission is over, but also that maybe he just ends up in situations that require torture and murder because he likes it. This staring into the abyss, obviously, upsets Sayid so much that he wants to atone by building houses in the Dominican Republic. And much like how we hate the person who points out all that we're ignoring about ourselves, he comes to realize that Ben knew all along that Sayid enjoyed the murder and the torture and exploited it.
I buy it, but if they fill in more, I won't be opposed.
And Sayid won't have to live with the guilt of having tried to metaphorically kill Hitler in the cradle
I don't get this comment. Ben living in no way changes the fact that Sayid attempted to kill him.
First to answer your straw poll - I vote for Juliet.
I see your point about Sayid's change but he's done so much in his life to feel bad for and Ben's the only one still around (his father's gone, Inman, Sadam,) to demonize- I'd like to see more but I don't have to.
The thing that struck me after the shooting was - is future Jack going to have to take a dislodged bullet out of Ben's spine instead of cancer? or is Jack going to now have to operate on young Ben's spine? (though that would blow his cover)
I'm fond of the theory that the truest Others are ghosts. For example, what was up with Richard telling Horace that the Dharma sonic fence couldn't affect them? That seems perhaps a bit inhuman. Much more pertinently, there was the formative moment with young Ben long ago seeing his dead mother and being told it wasn't time to join the Others. Well, she's dead ain't she? So joining the Others for real and for true would seem to require death. Indeed, perhaps it requires traumatic death given the stereotypical ghost-are-here-because-they-need-to-haunt-someone theory.
As such, I wouldn't be surprised if the Island didn't cure young Ben so much as welcome him to the other side.
(Yes, yes, I realize not everything ties together. I began as one sympathetic to the notion that just Richard's a ghost among the Others since he doesn't age. But who knows? After all, Richard was keen on John dying.)
In any case, I think it'd be wonderfully tragic if Sayid's horrid attempt at saving everyone by shooting Ben when he's a 12-year-old boy ends up only to cement Ben's destiny.
P.S. Sorry if the initial deluge of comments and my typing slowly means this is all old hat by the time it posted. It wasn't in the first 2 comments when I started writing. :)
Wow, I am the opposite. I'd much prefer a splintering timelines approach! I hate the "closed loop" or whatever you want to call it. It never makes sense to me and gets on my nerves every time I've seen it done.
And they will never get all the pieces to fit. Really.
That said, Farraday's words suggest that the closed loop is definitely what we should expect.
If we go back to one of the early ideas about the island, that people are redeemed when they rise above their past habits and beliefs and break a lifelong pattern, then Sayid is squarely in the doghouse for shooting little Ben whether the island saves Ben or not. And maybe that's why this episode was back to the old-style flashback format.
I agree though, that there is still a piece missing between the habitat for humanity Sayid and when he breaks Hurley out. I share the hope that we get to see it.
I've never really been a fan of Sayid episodes, other than the final scene this one didn't quite measure up to the rest of the season for me.
Sawyer now has a choice between Juliet, who has dedicated herself to bringing life and paid a huge price for it, and Kate, who burned her own father alive and got away with it.
Oh, and is it just me, or is Kate's mom's love for her abusive baby daddy eerily reminiscent of Sally Jupiter's love for Eddie Blake?
For what it's worth (and I don't know what this means), I'm pretty sure I saw Buddhist prayer flags at the Dharma torturers place.
I wonder if young Ben will somehow be saved by Jack in next week's ep thus mirroring Jack later saving Ben's life when he had the tumor.
Also, I thought the opening was setting us up to show that Sayid's brother was going to grow up to be Caesar. Apologies for the racial profiling - though I'm of Middle Eastern descent, so I'm allowed :)
Speaking of that, I don't think Lost wanted to go there but if Lost were BSG-like, there would have been a big deal of the fact that Sayid is not only a hostile but obviously an Arab one. There would be a special poignancy to a group of white men tying an Arab to a tree and torturing him and then voting to kill him without a trial.
I think Sayid knows that Ben killed Locke. When Ben visited him in Santo Domingo to claim that Widmore had Locke killed and would soon find Sayid, Sayid had already been visited by Locke and Abbadon. So when Ben says, "If I can find you, they can too" (or whatever to that effect), Sayid knows that Widmore already located him, and DIDN'T kill him, or Locke.
So Sayid realizes that Ben is lying about Locke, lying about Widmore, lying about whatever else, especially since it becomes apparent that Ben engineered his capture and departure on the Ajira plane. Hence the schism.
Did anyone else see a parallel between Sayid's shooting Ben and Ben's shooting Locke back in Season Three's "The Man Behind the Curtain"? Ben seemed to have been trying to thwart the Island's plans for Locke, but Locke survived what appeared at first to be a fatal wound.
I definitely the Ilana character knows alost more than what she told Sayid. She seemed eerily calm as Ajira 316 was beginning its decsent to the island.
Not saying she works for Ben, but if she's not who she says she is, how else would she know who Sayid killed on the golf course in the Economist last season?
...and then that man killing one of their young boys.
Now DHARMA is going to blame the Hostiles for shooting Ben. Truce over. The shiznit is about to go down.
That was a really well-thought and explained review, even more so considering how fast it was done and the complicated implications the actions occurring in this episode present to the storyline.
Sayid's shooting of Ben was a bit of a stunner and I am hoping his resurection through island healing isn't the simple explanation.
I'm intrigued by the notion of possible, slightly alternate parallel universes on the island with and without existing characters but I imagine this might present to complicated scenarios to be dealt with on a simple series...but who knows?
I find it hard to believe Jack couldn't wait to tell Kate about Juliet and Sawyer, that seem implausible to me.
I think there has to be more to the backstory with Ben and Sayid, but I'm afraid this too may be dismissed.
I kind of wondered why after Sayid's truth serum interogation they didn't delve deeper into what he knew and questioned it more, especially as he was predicting all of their demise.
Sayid's sudden revelation of purpose and Sawyer's trying to hold onto what he now holds dearly was foreboding.
This show has a thing about abusive fathers and the damage they inflict in their children's lives and how it changes them as people and the lengths some with go to correct it.
Didn't Ben use Sayid's move that time fighting those goons in Tunisia?
As usual extremely entertaining episode. And yes, I was one of the one's yelling "No, no...Sawyer you better not turn around and go to Kate's....NO!" I definitely think he's better with Juliet and that says alot considering I used to hate Juliet.
I also believe that Ben is going to be alive next week. Part of the reason I think that is the quote that you used where Ben tells Sayid that it's in his nature to kill. I think that was Ben expressing that Sayid is capable of killing even a little kid (even though Sayid doesn't know it). At that point Ben would know that Sayid evenutally goes back to when he was a kid so maybe he understood the time loop.
Another random question. Does anyone else think Ethan's Mom is up to something? We know that Ethan survives Ben's attack on Dharma (assuming that still happens and everything doesn't change). Does that mean that there is more to the mother's (can't remember her name) initial introduction in the field with the others than we think? Or is Ethan taken by the Other's because of what we know about them and wanting kids (walt, rousseou's daughter, aaron, etc).
Finally...when Sawyer was about to whisper in Sayid's ear about Oldham, I was completey convinced he was gonna say "the mad scientist" or in simpler terms Daniel Faraday. Can't wait for next week.
And to answer Alan's poll and bullets:
- Definitely Juliet, Kate at this point in the show is like gum you can't get off the bottom of your shoe. I bet at the end of the season though that Sawyer will be dumb and go back to Kate and then Juliet will sacrifice herself somehow to show Sawyer the error of his ways. Which would suck because she & Ben are my fave characters on the show now. (Not a spoiler - TOTAL conjecture.)
- I don't think Jack and Kate are shacked up together. Jack walked a diff way after getting smacked down by Sawyer last ep.
- I thought the same thing about Oldham/Faraday though I think they named the episode just because "He's Our You" sounds cool. It was really only a minor part.
I really hope Sawyer stays with Juliet. They just work better to me.
And I also briefly thought that they were taking Sayid to see Faraday.
Does everyone think that young Ben is the one who set the bus on fire? Or was he just taking advantage of the situation?
I'm thinking (and hoping) that the time travel stuff remains close looped. If it creates and alternate reality of any kind, it will feel like such a cheat.
Ilana is definitely my current Lost crush. A woman who can take down Sayid? Hot.
Has it ever been established exactly how devout Sayid is as a Muslim? It was just a bit weird to see him throwing down in the bar (and I realize that sounds weird considering that he's been a killing machine for a large portion of his existence on the show).
Finally, it seems to me that former Deadwood cast members are to Lost what former actors from The Wire are to The Office.
Sawyer says, 3 years, no burning bus, you guys are back 1 day.....
i sort of feel for the 06. Imagine the guilt you would feel if you left the rest of your castaways back on the island, so then you go back only to find out shit is pretty cool, and Sawyer (and presumably the rest) didn't want rescue. So, you feel like you made a great sacrifice to come back and help people who don't want help. And here we are....
Oh, and it doesn't matter which of the foursome pair off, Kate doesn't deserve either Jack or Sawyer. Juliet is too good for either of them.
I'm fond of the theory that the truest Others are ghosts. For example, what was up with Richard telling Horace that the Dharma sonic fence couldn't affect them?
Amy did go into a stash of earplugs when she brought Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Miles and Faraday through the fence to Dharmaville and she walked through OK while the Future Folk writhed in pain. Maybe Richard owns a pair of earplugs.
If there is anything more to the Ben/Sayid fallout my guess it has something to do the the murder in Guam. This would help explain Sayid's willingness to stop fighting and go along with the bounty hunter, as well as, further immerse her character into the overarching story.
As far as Jack not telling Kate about Sawyer and Juliet it could simply be that Jack and Sawyer's conversation was late at night or that Jack was trying to protect her feelings in some way or comprehend his own before telling her.
I actually thought Sawyer was going to over to see Jack to ask for his help with the Sayid situation. It wouldn't have necessarily made him look like the leader he has grown into being, but asking for help is a leadership trait Jack, Locke, and Ben all seem to be lacking. I did like how Sawyer commented, "Three years and no flaming buses. You're back for one day..." Maybe as long as everyone's on the island, no leader is going to have a simple time of things.
I had the same reaction to Ben v. Sayid. I like the idea of Sayid recognizing his hollow shell of a life, but to adamantly tell Hurley not to trust Ben doesn't seem to have any basis in what Ben did to Sayid. Ben helped Sayid get revenge for Nadia's death, and Sayid offered to go on a killing spree. Crappy way to live? Yes. Ben's fault? No.
I would be really annoyed with an alternate reality. I think what happened happened, and the closed loop (with the apparent exception of Desmond) is what I'm rooting for.
You know, now that I think about it, there have been a lot of let downs this season. Kate's interaction with John didn't merit the vitriol she later spews at the non-mention of his name with Jack. Desmond finding Faraday's mom didn't seem to do any good to anyone, other than to get Desmond & Penny in the same town as Ben. The Oceanic Six going back to the island didn't seem (key word I'm sure) to have anything to do with the "bad things" stopping. I'm sure there's more. Hrm.
And count me in for Juliet
The Ben/Sayid flashbacks omitted references to Nadia, the reason Sayid started working for Ben in the first place. The clear implication once Sayid turned on Ben was that Ben had lied about Nadia's murderer and was likely himself Nadia's murderer (or so I've always thought). We got an indirect indication of that when Ben tells Sayid about Locke's death and blames Widmore. The only problem is that if Sayid stopped working for Ben when he discovered Ben lied about Widmore killing Nadia, then why believe Ben when he claims Widmore killed Locke?
Surely Ben will live, if only so Ilana can meet him and remember Sayid's words. But letting him live really does undercut Sayid. A professional killer unable to definitively eliminate a 12 year old at close range? For shame. Given the opening sequence, the proper strategy clearly would have been to snap his neck.
Sawyer did take a back seat, I suppose, but his scenes really ramped up tension between the old hands and the new arrivals. And he jumped right into a very important question: Why did the other people come back? I realize the answer he gets will have to do with why Kate got on the plane, but it does at least point to the question of what the new arrivals expect to accomplish on the island. (I guess this tension only holds for Sawyer and Juliet, who have something to lose. I'd expect Jin would be happy to get back to the 21st century. Maybe Miles, too.)
I'm also curious about Hurley's backstory, whenever we get to it. He was incredibly distraught getting on the plane to come back to the island, but since getting back he's been pretty mellow ("Try the dipping sauces"). I like mellow Hurley a lot, but still, he somehow found his way to the Ajira flight headed to Craphole, and we still don't know how or why.
Decent episode, but when the first LOST title card appeared after the cold open, and the standard LOST intro music cued, I became nostalgic for the earlier seasons of LOST that were all about the mysteries of the island.
Consider me very nonplussed by the episode (I am without plus).
I guess I have bought into the you can't change the future (at least for the time being, but I also believe Desmond can so maybe I'm just a sucker for Faraday's arbitrary rules) idea of the time travel we are in. If that's the case, I really am expecting Ben to get up next episode which sort of means that nothing really happened in this episode. I was much more satisfied at the end of La Fleur which was roundly criticized as a set up episode where nothing happened. If nothing happened in La Fleur then I feel like we must have been stepping backwards in this one.
All that being said, as I read some of these fantastic comments and consider the idea that Syid's attempted murder might set off a chain of events that could lead to war between Dharma and the Others I reserve my ability (like so many commenters, including Alan) to change my opinion. If the only thing to come out this episode is that you can't apparently change the future and because of that Ben is still alive and there is no build up to a battle then what was the purpose of this hour?
I was unaware that either LSD or liquid MDMA doubled as a truth serum but I love that hippie Dharma would give a nod to the godfather of psychedelics Timothy Leary. Oldham said something along the lines of "turn on your mind" leary when discussing lsd famously said "Turn on, tune in, drop out."
Add another vote for Jawyer (which when said sounds like Joy-yer which incidentally equates to a much more joyful time for everyone which means it is not to be).
I love Hurley as a lunch lady. "try all of the dipping sauces" and of course they were having ham with their waffles.
Finally, I swear I wrote this in an IM to a friend while watching before I read the exact same thing from Alan, but my god, if I was locked in hatch with Radzinsky I would have happily put a bullet in him. His will be a satisfying departure.
Finally I feel like I need to do something to differentiate myself from the other Michael commenter who has been posting here well before I did and it seems wrong to require him to differentiate when he posts after me (he did so in the Chuck post this week). Anyone know how to change my google/blogger ID?
This story is telling us something about why Ben behaves the way he does : if, as a man from the future (2007+), he were to straight out tell you why he's doing anything, instead of manipulating you, and you are in power, you are likely to vote to have him executed!
It's interesting timing to show us this episode after "Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham", where you know he's at first telling "the truth" to Locke, and then kills him after knowing his involvement with "higher powers".
Is Ben evil? We still can't tell.
Couple of followup comments:
I don't see how Ilana can work for Ben. She was headed to Guam before/while Ms. Hawking told everyone else they were headed to Guam. Also, she knew why Sayid killed on the golf course because the victim's family hired her.
If the Others are ghosts, Juliet would have to be a ghost. As would Widmore and Ms. Hawking. Penny would be the daughter of a ghost, and I don't even know what that would mean. I'm not saying the theory is wrong, just that it has some odd consequences. (For example, if they are ghosts, why can they be killed?)
dave s: Yeah, what was the point of sending Desmond to Faraday's mom? We probably won't even get close to an answer to that for a while.
A few points, Alan:
here Jack and Kate apparently spent the night in the same bungalow without Kate mentioning that their respective exes shacked up while they were gone.
Jack and Kate spent the night in the same bungalow? Are you sure? I don't remember that being mentioned.
Am I the only one who briefly wondered if the much-talked-about Oldham would turn out to be Faraday?
Probably. Last week, Sawyer said Faraday's not there anymore. I assumed that meant he either left the island, died, went completely nutso and lives like a hermit, so nutso Horace wouldn't trust him.
Now, am I the only one who wondered, after Ben told Sayid he killed all Widmore's men, Sayid didn't ask, "What about Widmore?" Even if there was a deal between Widmore and Ben, Sayid wouldn't know that? (Nevermind that Widmore would have violated it.)
I'm voting for the closed-loop theory, and somehow Ben has to survive to be welcomed by Dharma to walk freely when he gasses them, so he probably gets guidance from Richard and returns to the barracks as a mole/saboteur.
I think you were looking at this episode from the wrong point of view - Alan. I never thought for a minute that Ben was in real danger - even as half-spoiled as I was.
He's BEN. He's the only major character with a real understanding of what's going on. I just don't see a sixth season without him.
So if a gunwound in a 70's won't mean a dead Ben in the '00's (God, I wish we had a short hand term for this soon-to-be-over decade) - if this episode didn't end with a "OMGZ is Ben Dead?" cliffhanger - then on what emotional note did it end?
Sayid just shot a kid. Sure, he went back in time and killed Baby Hitler, but he just shot a baby. 12 year old Ben hasn't killed anyone, he just wanted to live with the cooler people in the woods. Hell, it's almost 25 years until the purge.
I saw this episode as the key to the real downward spiral of Sayid. The man who laughs at his own fate. The man who, after all this time, embraced himself as the monster he really is.
Because, in his heart of hearts, I think even Sayid knows that what he just did is a useless act.
One other question, how long until Radzinsky remembers that right before Sayid appeared, from an unlikely airplane, Jin came in demanding to know if there were any sightings of an airplane? Two people mentioning an airplane on the island in two days, he might not suspect Jin or anything, but he might mention it to Horace.
Thinking about it, I guess I go with Ben still being alive and history not changing. Anything else just seems unlikely for a show with so much emphasis on their continuity.
Hey, Jack/Kate/Hurley, if you're going to talk about Sawyer in the middle of the mess hall, could you be smart enough to call him LaFleur?
Checking yes for Juliet. Amazing how invested I am in that relationship after just a few episodes and years of rooting for Kate and Sawyer. Like Sawyer, I got over it.
Interesting that Juliet called what she and Sawyer are doing playing house. The same thing Sawyer offered to do with Kate and Kate rejected.
Sayid and Ilana. Hot. Even though I totally knew she was going to kick his ass. Maybe moreso because I knew she was going to kick his ass.
A couple thoughts on this episode (which I will probably also post over at Poniewozik's Tuned In site later.....but which I have to post here because his Time overlords put Idol in front of Lost in terms of importance):
1) From a pure shock value assessment, I think this episode's ending is only surpassed by the Season 3 finale with Jack saying "We have to go back!" Honestly, is anything MORE of a game changer in this show's shocking history than the possibility that Sayid just irrevocably altered the future? Other than, of course, the idea that Jack and Kate and some of the Oceanic 815ers left the island but left some others behind?
2) Why did Sayid break with Ben completely? I like the poster here who mentioned that maybe it was the fact that Locke visited Sayid without an assasin killing both of them as tipping him off that Ben was manipulating him.....but how about this idea: Ben is the first (and only) time Sayid killed for no identifiable purpose. With the chickens, it was to help his brother/friend. With the would-be torturers of Nadia, it was to save her (innocent) life. On the island, it was always to save a 815 survivor.
But with Ben, he did it on Ben's word that killing them "would keep his friends safe." But clearly when Locke died, and when Hurley was threatened....well, Ben's idea that this was helping was proven pretty untrue, wasn't it?
3)Crazy theory time: are we sure that "1970s Ben Linus" is "Ben Linus"? And by that, I mean, are we sure that the kid Sayid shot is the guy that grows up to be Ben Linus, who poisons/gasses his people and dad?
I mean, the only reason we "know" that is because of flashbacks....but are we EVER certain that we're really seeing our current character's past, other than when we actually "see" them? I mean, what if "young Ben" was always a red herring for a later, more evil kid that "adopts" the Ben Linus identity as a badge to terrorize and/or assert authority over the Hostiles (and/or the Dharma folks)?
4) Am I the only one disturbed at the Sawyer brainwashing? Or wondering why Jin took so long to show up in this episode (and/or why Miles never appeared at all)? And what is going on with Faraday? Or, even more importantly, Rose and Bernard?
If Radzinsky is this crazy now, how crazy can he get by the time of the gassing?
And, like Anthony Foglia, I wondered if Jin mentioning the plane to Radzinsky was going to end up being very bad for him, now that Sayid shot Ben with Jin's gun.
One other question: how about the deep signifance behind Juliet's lone (significant) line to Sawyer?
"It's over, isn't it?"
SOOOOOO many ways to read that:
1) Asking whether it is, indeed, over between Sawyer and Kate.
2) Asking whether it is, indeed, over between Juliet and Sawyer.
3) Asking whether it, as in their life amongst the Dharma in the 1970s, is over.
4) Asking whether Jack and Kate are, indeed, over.
5) Asking whether it (in the sense of the peace prior to the 815ers returning) is over.
SOOOOO many ways to read it....all of which are interesting....
First, to those various commenters like Chris wondering whether "that's it?" in regard the Sayid/Ben falling out, I'm really curious about Sayid's comment to the effect that Ben's essentially guilty of "genocide
Second, amending my should-have-thought-about-it-much-more ghost theory: Yeah, it doesn't really work (though I still think Richard's a ghost and that his comment about the sonic fence wasn't just meant to imply he had earplugs. But to be clear, when I said I believed the "truest Others" are ghosts, I didn't mean all the Others, just the ones who seem to have a special relationship with the Island and a claim to lead it, like Jacob, Richard, John, and Ben... oh darn, as I write this, I remember that Widmore says he was leader of the Others and yes he had a kid, which ghosts supposedly don't do. And of course, duh!, Ben had a spinal tumor. [Though cancer is really nasty... I wouldn't be surprised if the old gallows humor of "death cures cancer" is wrong and you can get cancer even after you die. :)]
More seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if Island forces you to do the whole Jesus and Neo thing and thus in order to really ascend to Chosen-One status you need to get resurrected... which is of course different than being a ghost. If so, this brings up the question of whether Charles Widmore had such a temporary death experience (assuming he's not just self-aggrandizing or lying when he said he was leader of the Others)
Re: straw poll
my opinion:
Kate/Sawyer: chemistry
Kate/Jack: no chemistry
Juliet/Sawyer: no chemistry
Did anyone else laugh out loud when the bounty hunter said she was going to take Sayid back to Guam. I loved the scene where Sayid sees the rest of the 6. I'm assuming Ben was uninvolved, and this was just part of the whole destiny theme.
I think that the 6 (especially Hurley) need to be more mad about the fact that no one actually wants them here.
And I definately am rooting for Juliet. She deserves to be happy, it's been 3 years (so it's silly for Sawyer to be still so hung up on her), and I never thought Kate and Sawyer were that great of a couple anyway (sex in a polar bear cage while being videotaped... yuck).
Jason,
That's a great theory. But it's REALLY subtle. Not that rewarding for viewers as him making the connections onscreen would've been.
As to the idea that Sayid is spiraling out of control a bit, my bigger concern is Sawyer. How far will he go to protect this life he's established? Letting his friend be tortured is pretty awful. And why did he and Juliet never leave the island on the sub? Why is Miles staying? Jin I could see staying in hopes of magically finding Sun (staying because he wants to be there in case there's another time switch which brings him back to her) but I'm not clear at all why these people never left the island since it seems people can go back to the mainland on the sub. Yes, they'd be trapped in the 70s but is that so bad? Better than living on an island pretending to be someone you're not and waiting until the day Ben decides to kill you. And if they were simply waiting for their friends to appear, well, three years of waiting seems a long time. And if that's been Sawyer's dream, to get Kate back and return to the present, why does he now seem to want to do nothing to get them back to the present but instead seems to just want to protect his fake life?
(Oh and I too vote for Sawyer/Juliet, and also don't think Jack is sharing a bungalow with Kate.)
Bill Kaminsky,
I thought the genocide comment was in reference to Ben killing all the Dharma people. While genocide is WAY overstating it -- calling him a mass-murderer is more apt -- I do think that's what he meant.
(not the one from a few posts up)
I don't think I read anywhere that once Ben got back to the island (as seen last week in his scenes with Frank and Sun) that the Island has already started to heal him. His facial lacerations were almost gone by the end of the episode and he took off his sling, and that was no more than a couple days after his injuries.
So I bet the Island heals him in 1977, withdraws its support (or whatever) at some point later so that he would die of a tumor, and then reinstates the healing factor by 2007.
That makes absolutely no sense outside of the context of this show, but it works here.
Anyway, I figure that young Ben set the van on fire and crashed it into the house as a diversion so that he could release Sayid, then Sayid would take him to the other Hostiles and Richard. There's no other rational explanation I can think of.
Did Sayid & Ilana's conversation echo Jack & Ana-Lucia's conversation in the airport bar? It seemed similar, but that could be my faulty memory grasping for a connection.
The more I see of Radzinsky, the more I begin to wonder if he actually committed suicide in the Swan, or if Inman blew his partner's brains out just to shut him up.
I know I wanted to kill him tonight. Thank God we're not going to have see the next 25 years of Dharma!
I don't think Ben is dead, or at least, I don't think the island will let him die yet. And I think Sayid's actions are the catalyst to Ben's full monstrosity (which his dad was already fostering in him with his abuse). And I agree that Ben set the bus on fire as a diversionary tactic to free Sayid.
Finally, I'm totally Team Juliet. Go home, Kate!
I'm in the "Juliet and her enigmatic smile" camp.
It would be fitting if the young Sayid killed the chicken in 1977.
Mr. Sepinwall: my understanding of the scene was that Sawyer was looking for Jack, and was surprised that Kate answered the door. This would be an obvious reference to last episode, when Jack was caught off guard by Juliet.
Withnail: The 00's can be called the "aughts," "naughts," or (my personal favorite) the "thousands."
I don't want to go on too long here with my personal ravings but it seems to me that the final scene holds a whole lot of significance. I don't think that the closed loop is going to be broken, I think the scene furthers the idea of a closed loop.
Ben feels as though it is key to bring everyone back, and they need to be brought back at the time that they. Ben fails in doing so, look at his look of amazement in seeing Sayid. And yet they are still all end up there. They are there because they have to be there, because if they aren't they never get back to the past and never set in motion the actions that lead Ben to bringing them there to begin with. It is a bit paradoxical, as time travel tales generally end up, but I think it strengthens the closed loop and brings into question the idea of predestination.
"Checking yes for Juliet. Amazing how invested I am in that relationship after just a few episodes and years of rooting for Kate and Sawyer. Like Sawyer, I got over it."
Me too. And it's just sad to see how much angst Juliet seems to be feeling since her rival came back. It's pretty clear she thinks Sawyer will walk out on her any day now. I'm really hoping the writers are not going to do this, and put Kate and Sawyer back together again, but it's impossible not to see it coming.
I have to admit I don't miss Rose and Bernard even a little bit.
Crazy theory time: are we sure that "1970s Ben Linus" is "Ben Linus"? And by that, I mean, are we sure that the kid Sayid shot is the guy that grows up to be Ben Linus, who poisons/gasses his people and dad?
I mean, the only reason we "know" that is because of flashbacks....but are we EVER certain that we're really seeing our current character's past, other than when we actually "see" them? I mean, what if "young Ben" was always a red herring for a later, more evil kid that "adopts" the Ben Linus identity as a badge to terrorize and/or assert authority over the Hostiles (and/or the Dharma folks)?
The sticking point in this theory is Roger Linus. Awful father, yes, but not so neglectful that he'd suddenly just not recognize another kid claiming to his son. Not to mention the fact that Sawyer and company seem to be aware of Ben's presence and would definitely realize something was up if a new kid took his place.
I can't believe no one mentioned Sawyer's line in the show (which should be in the discussion for all time, hall of fame Sawyer lines during Lost) when he says:
:"3 Years, no burning buses, then ya'll are back for ONE day"
That had me laughing for 5 minutes!! Sawyers the bomb!
Also just quickly re watched the episode. When Ben gets on the plane on the end and stares down Sayid as Sayid sits there in handcuffs, I wonder if Ben's look on his face is a knowing look that he knows this is when Sayid, Kate, Jack, and Hurley show up in Dharmaville and Sayid is going to shoot Ben in a matter of days, sending events down a certain path. If so, very nice touch of acting with just a look by Michael Emerson.
I simply wish their story was properly closed. I hate when they introduce new cast members and act like they never existed. Kill'em off or let them depart, don't act like they don't exist.
I'm tired of the love games. I need some Ol' Greg.
Let Kate die. Sawyer and Juliet can do whateves. I just want a new found confident Jack back.
I feel sad for Sayid. I hope he'll see seasons end. It used to be once a character came to grips they were executed.
I hope nearly everyone dies. I don't want a sappy lame ass ending like BSG.
I'm with rj that "The clear implication once Sayid turned on Ben was that Ben had lied about Nadia's murderer and was likely himself Nadia's murderer." I can't see Sayid greeting Ben as calmly he did in Santo Domingo if he already knew or suspected that Ben played him by means of & probably caused Nadia's death. So I am betting that he discovers something to that effect between then and showing up to get Hurley. A reveal about Nadia answers exactly to my sense of what was missing in this episode to cause Sayid's distinct turn against Ben. And, thank you Alan for articulating the question of "whether there's anything more to tell about Ben and Sayid's falling-out on the mainland." This question got a bit lost for me in the dramatic ending, then resurfaced as I started reading reactions to the episode -- but no one was talking about it! so it was great to find you highlighting it.
Also totally agree with Chaddogg about this episode ending's shock value. I'm pretty committed to the close loop time theory, and trusting that the show takes place in such a world, and so while I think Ben cannot die as a boy, that just made the event all the more of shock. That can't happen! But it just did! Sure, a person might survive getting shot -- but by Sayid? If anyone is accurate (in everything he does, including killing), it's Sayid, right? Now that I'm a few hours out, I've imagined & seen the speculation of others about how Ben could still be alive, but nonetheless the moment was terribly dramatic. As were each of the youngBen-Sayid scenes.
Please allow me to quote myself from three weeks ago:
"As for Horace's blurry marital status, I'm wondering if Sawyer & Co. changed things when they saved Amy. Daniel says whatever happened happened, but what does he know, really? He's crazy as hell!"
http://tr.im/hOYo
I do believe the rules have changed. Holy child-murderer!
Really solid throwback episode. But yes, I groaned when Sawyer looked left.
Long time reader, first time commenter. I love your reviews, and the Lost write-ups are my favorites.
When I saw the book title ("The Separate Reality") my first thought was, "Ha! Cuse and Lindelof are deliberately tweaking the Sepinwalls*!"
*Lost fans who obsess, sometimes excessively, over which model of time travel is being used in the series.
Thanks for all the great posts.
I wonder... It's probably safe to assume that Ben got shot after Annie gave him the doll as a birthday present.
Maybe his getting shot/actually being dead/"real others" in general being ghosts has something to do with his comment about how they "used to celebrate birthdays" to Richard in The Man Behind the Curtain.
A vote for Sawyer and Juliet here. But I also think that Sawyer has more chemistry with either woman than Jack does. I would have loved to see Jack/Ana Lucia play out. Oh well.
I am going with the theory that Ben's being shot will be the catalyst to the "incident" which will change everything for Dharma. I don't think he's going to die, but could be seriously injured. I also like the idea that he's saved by Jack, in a neat parallel to Jack removing his tumor 30 years later.
If I remember correctly, the earlier episode flashbacks of Ben's childhood jumped from about this age (pre-Jack/Sayid/Kate we assume) when he met Richard, to a suddenly adult Ben driving his dad out to his death. So there is quite a window of time there for Ben to be laid up, etc.
I have to admit I've always struggled with the timeline around the purge, but isn't it supposed to be about 10 years from now? When Ben is 22 or so? The confusion is that the older Michael Emerson played the young man Ben, but I thought it was implied that he was only in his early 20's, which would place the purge in the late 80's.
Frist off - I'm in the Juliet/LaFleur camp.
And I think I have to join the closed-loop group as well. Sayid probably miscalculated the shot because of the size of his victim, and so Ben will survive this wound; that it didn't hit anything vital. (I never understand why most killers aim for the chest rather than the head!)
And I think Juliet will also be instrumental in saving his life, thus beginning Ben's infatuation with her.
Also per the closed-loop theory, I agree that their return is what sets in motion the Purge.
I never considered Daniel to be Oldham. I saw Sanderson's name in the opening credits, so when Sawyer mentioned that Oldham was psycho, I knew "Larry" (more 'Newhart' than 'Deadwood' for me) fit the bill.
And I'm with Tyro in hoping everybody goes kablooey, probably thanks to Jughead. I love them all (well, certainly not Radzinsky but I already know he's a goner), but I want to see this series actually end eventually. I don't want ABC suits to resurrect it as a movie without the participation of Cuse and Lindelof, and ruin our memories of it.
When Kate answered the door to Saywer, she glanced back and then closed it partway. But I don't think Jack was inside. I agree with another poster that Jack's off in some other bungalow, probably rooming with Hurley and other new recruits.
When we saw that other bungalow burn, several women escaped from it, and I think Kate has the same kind of living arrangements - just one of several living in a dormitory situation. I don't think you get a bungalow to yourself (and/or your significant Other - heh) unless you hold a position of authority, like LaFleur (or like Juliet years later when the place was New Otherton).
Finally, I suppose all three are together, but I'm not thinking of Rose and Bernard as much as I am of Vincent!
Sorry, I always seem to forget something.
It seems like every season, we get introduced to a new group of characters - 1) the original 815ers, 2) the Tailies, 3) the Others, 4) the Freighter Folk, and now 5) the Dharma group.
I'm hoping that with the final season, we finally get to meet the Whisperers. See the events of the Island from their perspective.
And it would be a great way to bring back a lot of characters from the past like Libby and Boone and Rousseau. (Although I read that Somerhalder and Watros have signed to new series, so who knows.)
But maybe this could be why they're holding back on bringing in Claire until next season....
I don't think Ben is dead. Just basing this on a hunch, nothing more. Also as to one cool aspect of the time travel I haven't seen anyone mention.
I just finished rewatching the 2 season straight through for the second time ever. There is no way to tell if Ben recognizes Sayid when they first meet cause he is up in Rosseau's trap. But isn't it interesting how been is able to "read" all the survivors, especially Sayid, Jack and Locke mosy of all (the way he goads Locke over Jack's assumed leadership od the group is the most telling example?)
also, how else could The Others have such personal information on the survivors? True, clearly they have a network of spies but would these be able to know that it was the man from Tallahassee who swindled Sawyer's parents? And then put it in the file that Richard gives to Locke?
They know so much about the survivors because Ben met them all as a chil. Clearly. I hope this is true. Pretty proud of myself!
Speaking of Ben meeting Richard, the previouslies reminded me that Richard was all scruffy looking a la how the Others/Hostiles/Aboriginals looked when they tried to present themselves as uncivilized to the 815ers in the first two seasons. Since we've now seen cleaned up Richard most, if not all of the other times that he's appeared, including interacting with Horace/Dharma, I wonder if scruffy Richard was an allusion to that persona of the Others. Maybe they thought it was a better way entice Ben by showing him these cool island people who were roughing it unlike the privileged Dharma folks or whatever.
Or I'm making something out of nothing.
The last scene sure set up a plethora of questions and possibilities. I have faith that the show will deliver an answer that will blow us away.
Probably not going to get an answer for awhile though. We need to know where and what Farraday is up to.
His re-appearance and Ben's shooting are fated? to tie together.
Hurley continues to rule and I missed Locke this week.
Great review, Alan. Count me in for Juliet in the straw pool! And I'm also in the closed loop camp.
As for Ben and Sayid... I've always thought the same as RJ above, that Ben somehow set up the whole scenario by killing Nadia himself. We've seen him hire lawyers just to freak out Kate about Aaron - what would stop him from killing Nadia to turn Sayid into his own personal hitman? And do we actually believe all the people on those list were who Ben says they are?
I thought Naveen Andrews did a great job with Sayid's line - "What do I do now?" I'm starting to worry that Sayid may have completed most of his "journey" and may be the next major character to die. (No spoilers, just anxiety.)
I love Toby's idea above about Juliet saving Ben -- something has to happen to start Ben's obsession with her - but I also feel pretty strongly that the Island will heal Ben and that will start proving himself as worthy to the Others, setting the Purge and Ben's leadership in motion.
"Maybe there are other pieces to the puzzle, but but if so, we're not going the episode should have more strongly implied that they were missing."
Wait... what?
Otherwise... my vote is Juliet/
Sawyer all the way!
I don't get this comment. Ben living in no way changes the fact that Sayid attempted to kill him.
My phrasing wasn't ideal (this happens sometimes when I'm racing at a quarter to midnight). Taking out the "trying," and put it as "Sayid won't have to live with the guilt of killing baby Hitler in the cradle."
I don't think Jack and Kate are shacked up together. Jack walked a diff way after getting smacked down by Sawyer last ep.
It looked like they were exiting the same bungalow on their way to breakfast early in this episode, but I could be mistaken about that.
Count me as one who wants Juliet & Sawyer to be together.
But thanks to the return of the O6, I doubt they're going to have a happy ending.
Also, count me as one who was shocked Sayid shot to kill young Ben. Sure he's killed without remorse in the past (and could easily kill a chicken as a boy) - but to kill a poor abused kid who just wants to be special -- that's a whole other thing (even knowing the monster young Ben grows up to be).
Too bad Sayid is probably still being manipulated. He may have thought killing Ben was an act of free will, when in reality it was most likely "his destiny." And like others have already commented -- it probably leads to a war of sorts between Dharma and the Hostiles setting in motion everything that is meant to come.
As far as the Jack and Kate stuff goes, when Sawyer goes to ask Kate why she came back, the beginning of their meeting was played in such a way that I thought she was at Jack's house and Sawyer went to talk to him, but then their conversation went in a different direction. When I talked to my sister about the episode afterwards, she said got the same vibe. Did we see Sawyer walking from his house to Kate's or is it possible that he went to Jack's to ask the same question and decided to just ask Kate when she answer the door?
Another vote for Sawyer not leaving Juliet for Kate!
Stepping back from just the Sayid specific stuff, I may be in the minority but these Dharma episodes, especially after last night, remind me of the season 3 first few with Sawyer, Kate and Jack in the cages/cell. They sucked, and sucked the life out of the show, because episode after episode had no purpose and just beat the dead horse of them being abused over and over. We still don't really know why the heck they were kept there.
Similarly, why are these folks in 1977? Why aren't any of them trying to find out anything about the island? Or more about the Hostiles?
It seems like the writers get so enamored of a location/situation in which to drop the lead characters, and then leave them there for week after week to stew in it.
Also confused about the Kate/Jack living arrangement. When Sawyer walked over I assumed he was going to ask Jack for advice (showing what a great leader he is) and was surprised when Kate answered the door; Kate also looked kind of guilty. But then Sawyer talked to her as if he was looking for her all along. I didn't notice Kate and Jack leaving for breakfast together, I'll have to rewatch that scene tonight.
-R
There are weeks--lots of them, actually-- when I look forward to the Thursday morning Sepinwall more than I look forward to the Wednesday night episode. This week's one of them.
The "old school" shape to this episode left me restless, which may only show how far we've come in these 4 and a half years, and how well we've come to know these characters. An "all about Sayid" episode was not really the thing I craved at this point, not only because there are so many other more interesting mysteries, but also because we've been able to intuit or surmise so much of what was indeed shown to us in flashback last night.
That Sayid was bounty-hunted by his bounty-hunter-- got it; that he killed a bunch of people for Ben--got it; that he wound up in the Carribbean trying to do one good thing in the wake of all that murder-- dude, you had me at "torture." What was left for us to groove on this episode was mostly Sayid behind bars. Which by definition didn't give him much room to move.
Which is a shame since I think Naveen Andrews is one of the more hugely talented actors on the show-- always interesting to watch, and I've always loved the way he balances the contradictions of what seems like his good soul with the trail of blood he leaves behind.
It may simply be that this is a mop-up episode, necessary in order to keep all the parts of this ridiculous storyline in order. IF so, it makes me heave a weary sigh against the prospect of similar runs around the writers' dog track for Hurley and Sun and Kate.
I don't suspect for a second that Ben is dead. Please. Which means that the primary dramatic climax of this script will turn out to be yet one more LOST mulligan. Oh wait! He's not dead after all! Another emotional peak we experienced for, uh-- no reason!
I would like to see Naveen Andrews having as much fun as he appeared to be having back when he was dating Shannon. Seems unlikely though.
And so the highlights for me, in this episode remained most of the non-Sayid moments. NUmber one: Hurley working in the kitchen. Try the dipping sauces indeed. The joy that Jorge Garcia brings to this role is remarkable. IT lifts up every scene he's in. (Except when we get the terrible prospect of Sad Hurley, which fortunately we haven't had to bear for a few episodes now.)
Also: Hurley cluelessly explaining to Jack and Kate that Sawyer and Juliet are together, "you know, like you guys used to be together." D'oh!
Love the kid playing Young Ben. Love Josh Holloway, who as an actor has done such remarkable things with his character. Love the eeriely androgynous Horace.
I'd also like to go on record as getting weary of everyone dissing Jack and Kate. I think the writers have put these characters, and these actors, in a difficult spot-- but we all ought to remember that these two--their weird chemistry, their baggage and fears--drove the engine of the show for years. They've been shunted aside by the action, I think, which leaves these two in drydock dramatically-- but I truly trust, and hope, and expect, that the writers will come up with something REMARKABLE for them before this season is done, so that we can rightfully remember that LOST can and still should be powered by the weird chemistry of these two characters, and yeah, these two actors.
I absolutely love where LOST has arrived this season. Such an interesting dramatic situation. I would have liked to have seen more Sayid material that truly surprised me, rather than confirming what I pretty much guessed. And yeah, I'll be happier with this episode if Ben's actually dead, but he's not. If he's actually dead, well, I'll eat my hat. I'll eat crow. Hell, man, I'LL TRY THE DIPPING SAUCE.
Finally, prediction for where we're headed (this is not a spoiler, since I'm just making this up) : "The Incident" in the Swan will end this season, you know, the magentica anomaly that made them have to puch the buttons-- and that will telport everyone back to the present for the final War with Widmore,and season 6.
How would one know this?
Sayid: "I"m from the future!"
And yeah, hearing Sayid/Naveen Andrews cackle maniacally after delivering this line was really, really, cool. We've seen Sayid do lots of things, but cackle like a happy, crazy person? THAT was a LOST first.
You know, now that I think about it, there have been a lot of let downs this season. Kate's interaction with John didn't merit the vitriol she later spews at the non-mention of his name with Jack. Desmond finding Faraday's mom didn't seem to do any good to anyone, other than to get Desmond & Penny in the same town as Ben. The Oceanic Six going back to the island didn't seem (key word I'm sure) to have anything to do with the "bad things" stopping. I'm sure there's more. Hrm.
And, of course, last year I think we all assumed there was something a lot more mysterious and/or menacing behind how the Oceanic Six were chosen and why they felt compelled to tell this elaborate lie -- only to have it turn out that these were just the people who were on Frank's helicopter when the boat exploded and the island vanished, and that Jack came up with the lie on his own.
Sometimes, "Lost" is great with payoffs (see the magic bus saving the day with Hurley, or Desmond and Penny's reunion), but other times the set-ups turn out to be a lot more intriguing than what they're setting up.
Also, I was a fan of Sawyer and Freckles when theirs was the best relationship the show had to offer; they used to be my favorite two characters. But now I can't stand Kate, and I am rooting for Sawyer and Juliet big time.
I was actually disappointed when Juliet didn't confront Kate as was implied in last week's preview. Though the look on Juliet's face when she said something like, "I didn't know how to tell you without it sounding like I was telling you to stay away" definitely made it seem like she was trying to do just that.
-R
but to kill a poor abused kid who just wants to be special -- that's a whole other thing (even knowing the monster young Ben grows up to be).
One thing I neglected to spend much time on in the review: this episode really helps show how and why Ben grew up to be that monster. We already knew some of it from the way his dad neglected and verbally abused him in "The Man Behind the Curtain," but to see his dad toss him around like a ragdoll, and to see Ben shot and left for dead by a man he'd just started hero-worshipping... well, wouldn't that make you want to grow up to be the betrayer instead of the betrayed?
"I'd also like to go on record as getting weary of everyone dissing Jack and Kate. I think the writers have put these characters, and these actors, in a difficult spot-- but we all ought to remember that these two--their weird chemistry, their baggage and fears--drove the engine of the show for years. They've been shunted aside by the action, I think, which leaves these two in drydock dramatically-- but I truly trust, and hope, and expect, that the writers will come up with something REMARKABLE for them before this season is done, so that we can rightfully remember that LOST can and still should be powered by the weird chemistry of these two characters, and yeah, these two actors."
I agree that Kate and Jack used to be a central part of the show, and I liked them and still like the actors. I just think the characters became whiny and arrogant. I like New Jack a lot more, and hopefully Kate will be redeemed at some point, but right now she's the worst. She at various times has had her pick of Jack and Sawyer but never decided either way, just hooked up with whomever she was closest to at that moment. But for some reason she always pouted and acted like SHE was getting a raw deal. Bah.
-R
Sorry, but for me, K&J were never the main story. the show is always about Locke. period. Without him, i think it wouldn't have lasted. Locke's journey is the central one of the show and the one people love the most. His story compelled me to watch the show and love some of the other characters, but nothin compared to Locke. He is it, folks. His story is the main focus, no matter if he he doesn't show up for what, 2 eps in a row now or whatever?
And I think Juliet will also be instrumental in saving his life, thus beginning Ben's infatuation with her.
This seems to make sense. Didn't Ben say something to Juliet last season like, "You remind me of her"? Could 2007 Juliet just be reminding Ben of 1977 Juliet?
Oh, and put me down for Juliet in your straw poll, Alan. I don't dislike Kate as much as others seem to, but I think Elizabeth Mitchell is just magnetic. And her scenes with Sawyer have been great.
Hi, I'm Larry, this is my brother Daryl, this is my other brother Daryl. This is my LSD. Won't you have some? Oldham was an Other in the Maple Syrup station in Vermont.
From Jan:
I'm in the Sawyer/Juliet camp. Don't particularly like Kate with anyone.
And I have to agree with the person who wrote, "Also, the kid playing Ben was great. He really sold himself as Ben, and I totally believed that he could grow into Michael Emerson." And I liked your last comment Alan about how Ben would, of course, grow up to be a betrayer instead of the betrayed. (Sometimes I just hate it when understanding of someone's background makes me see why they are the way they are--that's a lot harder to deal with than making simplistic good/evil judgments.)
>>I'm with rj that "The clear implication once Sayid turned on Ben was that Ben had lied about Nadia's murderer and was likely himself Nadia's murderer.">>
Exactly. I thought it was set up fairly well that Nadia was killed by Ben, specifically to get Sayid to work for him. Sure, Ben set it up to seem like someone else was responsible for her death (Widmore), but if you want an unstoppable assasin on your side? You give him a really good reason to help you (although the "Sayid standing on the dock with Ben and *not* killing him outright when he had the chance" scene does punch some holes through this theory...)
And Little Ben is totally going to get better next week, one way or the other.
I definitely vote for Juliet---for anything! Sawyer and Juliet have won me over. Don't be a sap, Sawyer.
Oh, Hypotamoose, what an excellent description of Kate: "like gum you can't get off the bottom of your shoe". Ha! I vote for Kate to be the island sacrifice thrown into a volcano. Team Darlton's obsessive fascination with her is something I hope they get over soon. The volcano beckons....
As much as I would never trust Ben for anything, I came away with a greater sympathy for him as a damaged human being after watching his fear of his dad reduce him to tears. I would have eaten his chicken salad sandwich....
What I find disturbing is the split personality of Dharma. With all its hippy-dippiness there's a too easy mindset towards violence and torture as a solution. Dharma, the future Others, Richard's hostiles, the whole island seem so much darker than they did before. Are there any good guys?
Random thoughts:
I fear for Sayid's future. He took such a dark turn last night. I hope my fears are wrong.
I like Laid-back Jack---hope it's permanent.
I vote for closed loops and Ben surviving the shooting. Wasn't that an impressive fall the actor playing young Ben took after being shot? Nicely done. And...cut!
I thought it was set up fairly well that Nadia was killed by Ben, specifically to get Sayid to work for him.
I think Ben’s clean on this one (for once). When Ben turns the FDW, he winds up in Tunisia AFTER Nadia has already been killed. In “The Shape of Things to Come," Ben sees Sayid on TV shortly after the murder and looks genuinely shocked. That’s not to say Ben didn’t use Nadia’s murder to his advantage, but I do think it was Widmore who had her killed.
There was also some funny stuff in tonight's episode that had me chuckling.
Loved it when Sayid asked Ilana to take another flight.
Love Hurley and the dipping sauces.
Loved drugged Sayid spewing the truth and then saying "you gave me exactly the right amount."
I loved that Sawyer compares Oldham to Sayid when they're nothing alike. Sayid is a sadistic torturer. Oldham is a hippie experimenting with LSD giving Sayid the best trip of his life.
Also, didn't Sayid once tie Sawyer to a tree and torture him for information? Tonight's torture scene seemed like a nice callback to that scene, except it reminds me that these two started out as mortal enemies. Yet now we're expected to believe that they they somehow became bffs during their 108 days on the island?
In my humble opinion, it would have been more interesting if that antagonism between Sawyer and Sayid still existed and we didn't know if Sawyer was trying to help or hurt Sayid throughout the episode.
Yes, this reminded me of an early episode...just enough to make me nostalgic for what they originally tried to do with those episodes. Specifically, this reminded me very much of a second season episode - and why I loathed many of them. Call me a romantic, but when Sayid exiled himself from beach camp in "Solitary," for what he did to Sawyer, it touched me. Made my sympathize with him when he himself was held captive by Danielle in a way that would not have happened had he kept on keeping on about being right with what he was before he hit Craphole Island.
I don't care about Sayid anymore after this episode. I just don't. Yeah, it may make for better drama and I'd miss Andrews and what he brings to the show, but Sayid could step on a landmine in the next episode and I'd shrug my shoulders. He's every bit the monster he claims Ben is and he proved it by shooting in cold blood an obviously abused (hell, he saw it WITH HIS OWN EYES and even went so far as to empathize with the child to his very face before doing so), 12-year old who trusted in him enough to risk his own life to free him when Sayid KNEW (from Sawyer) he was going to be killed. That kind of self-hatred may have been a bit appealing as a character arc when Sawyer carried it all through 2 1/2 seasons of the show, but Sayid was once a character who felt he could get redemption and actually tried to achieve it. The current Sayid is just a hollow shell of that character IMO. And Holloway already did it twice as well, in any case.
Yeah, okay, so maybe I'm shallow that way, but that's just something I can't accept in a "sympathetic character," even on LOST. You used to love to hate Sawyer, but I just can't get up enough "umph" to even hate Sayid at this point. The character is just not that interesting in other ways IMO.
He used to at least be the guy who was "logical" enough to give a second opinion that
I'm with those who think that Sayid put 2+2 together after Ben visited him in Central America. Even if he doesn't fully buy the "Widmore killed Nadia" explanation, he surely has seen and heard enough to think that Ben played him, which is enough motivation for the "new and improved" Sayid to want him dead. It's just cheap that he took it out on youngBen instead of offing the older and nastier model on the docks when he had the means to do it. He could have easily taken Sun's gun and done the deed himself. But that wouldn't have serviced the plot...
Speaking of motivations, the new "flashback" scene in this episode between Sayid and Ben had me wondering whether or not the assumed assasination targets of Ben/Sayid were really Widmore associates for some reason. Since Ben could always claim a second degree of seperation, could they be his OWN associates Sayid if offing? Or just people that Ben doesn't like?
As for Sawyer/Juliet, to me it's mainly a function of how the producers have screwed up the character of Kate. On DarkUFO's site, there's even a poll entitled "How Should Kate Be Killed Off?" I think the current leading vote-getter is something like: "She should be thrown in thevolcano while Jack and Sawyer celebrate with a DHARMA beer."
RWG (pretty much says it all, IMO)
I vote for Sawliet. I just finished rewatching season two, and started on three. I'm much less sympathetic toward Jack the second time through - a lot of his actions just seem bossy and douche-y. I want to find something else out about Libby. I didn't realize, on my first watching, that she was the woman who gave Des his boat - she just looked so different that I didn't pick up on it.
I was spoiled, from somewhere, about Larry Farnum showing up as Oldham. As soon as I saw his name in the credits, I knew it would be him, so I didn't get caught up in the "maybe it's Faraday" speculation. Didn't detract rom the episode at all for me. Oldham's line about "half a dropper", and Sayid's response, killed me. What came to mind for me during this scene was some kind of MK Ultra (CIA program using LSD in the 50s and 60s) /Dharma connection/cross-fertilization. I can totally see Larry Farnum as a rogue former operative in that program who finds his way to Dharma somehow, and I hope this wasn't just a one off guest shot.
I haven't watched the episode where the Purge occurs in a while, so I don't remember that Ben kills his father then. I'll have to rewatch He's Our You again to be sure, but as I watched last night I got the impression (probably wrong) that Ben had killed his father that night and that Ben was responsible for the burning bus (Sawfleur's line about that was one of the funniest of the series, for me). During the scene where Ben springs Sayid, I'm pretty sure Ben refers to his father in the past tense, but I'll have to check it to be sure.
I thought this was a good set up episode, but not quite as good as the previous two. Sayid's shooting Ben at the end (and put me in the "resurrecting Ben/closed loop camp) wasn't a surprise at all - I saw that coming at the end of last week's episode. Call me gullible, but when Sayid told Ben he was taking him to the Others, I fell for it just as hard as Ben did. And maybe Sayid was telling the truth, and Ben will join the Others, all of whom have died, at some point in the Island's history, and been resurrected. I just came up with that last bit just now, so I haven't thought about the deeper implications of the Others all being resurrectees.
Even if Jason's theory about Santo Domingo is true, I'm still hopeful that there's more to all of this than we've been shown -- and that stems mostly from the events/questions that came out of the Economist.
We're still owed answers as to whom the Economist was, as well as why R.G. was on Naomi's bracelet. Although these could be answered without a Sayid flashback, I'm hoping we'll get something that sheds more light on why Sayid's so insistent that "whatever Ben tells you to do, do the opposite".
Also, it's worth noting that whatever all is going on in Sayid's head, he's also carrying around the guilt of having killed Elsa (while working for Ben).
No, I'm pretty sure Ben's dad dies during the "purge" - isn't Ben with his dad at the time? And in the episode where Hurley takes the Dharma van for a joy ride, isn't Ben's dad's body in the van - "Workman" aka Janitor?
What if Ben really is dead and Michael Emerson is done with the show? Now wouldn't that be a twist.
Also, regardless of which time-theory you prefer -- I'm much more looking forward to seeing Ben join the Others, and seeing the Widmore-Linus battle begin; than I would be to seeing the Losties deal with 'living in a world without Ben.'
Let's hope Ben is back up and running next week, and on his way to tricking Charles Widmore into leaving the island.
Alan Sepinwall said:
"...but to kill a poor abused kid who just wants to be special -- that's a whole other thing (even knowing the monster young Ben grows up to be).
One thing I neglected to spend much time on in the review: this episode really helps show how and why Ben grew up to be that monster. We already knew some of it from the way his dad neglected and verbally abused him in "The Man Behind the Curtain," but to see his dad toss him around like a ragdoll, and to see Ben shot and left for dead by a man he'd just started hero-worshipping... well, wouldn't that make you want to grow up to be the betrayer instead of the betrayed?"
I am with the closed loop theory. So that means Ben was always going to have a horrible childhood and grow up to be a monster.
Sayid inadvertently creates evil Ben while trying to destroy him. That is sad. Does this mean Sayid always has to shoot Ben or that even if Sayid had not shot Ben, there would have been a course-correction to turn Ben into the man he becomes?
Couple thoughts - the flashbacks could also be flashforwards, since the 'present' is actually the past. (Oy.)
At the Marina...I could've sworn I saw a boat called "Illusion". Hmm. Probably doesn't mean anything, but you know how Lost loves to divvy out the Easter Eggs.
And like a few others have mentioned, Sawyer's complete indoctrination/devotion to Dharma is both fascinating and highly disturbing. I mean, sure, he's spent three years with them vs. only 100 days with Sayid - but to taser him, headbutt him AND vote for his execution?? Yikes. Sawyer's drank the kool-aid, all right.
I just rewatched the scene where Ben springs Sayid. Ben says "I really hated him", so maybe it's a way of showing that Ben has psychologically, rather than physically, killed his his dad. Or not, if the island, and I think it does, resurrect people, especially people who have a crucial role in the island's narrative.
also, the Taser bothered me - did they exist in 1977? According to Wikipedia, they did, but not in the form which Sawyer uses. Either a clue, or poor continuity choice, but most likely insignificant.
Looking at Lostpedia, they date The Purge to 1992, based on Ghost Horace telling Locke that he had been dead for 12 years in 2004. You can buy that, or not.
We do know that the Losties have no real clue about when it's going to happen.
I vote for Sawyer/Juliet, but I've never liked Kate at all, so it doesn't really matter to me.
Also, we don't need to see a Sun flashback, we know why she got on the plane.
Sawyer/Juliet vs. Sawyer/Kate: Despite time on the show, it's important to remember that Sawyer was with Kate on the island for 108 days, and has been having a relationship with Juliet for three years.
I don't think I spent enough time thinking about the impact of Sayid shooting Ben. When was the last time we saw anyone in television or film shoot a child at point-blank range, where the shooter wasn't a serial killer, but rather doing what he thought was the right/heroic thing? That is amazing. Sayid shot a child in cold blood... riveting television.
Also, while we see Ben's atrocities, they happen in the future, and so Ben is just an innocent child at this point. It's the whole debate as to whether if you could go back in time, would you kill child Hitler?
Again, I can't believe I just saw Sayid murder an innocent child. The implications are endless.
That said, I still contend that I miss learnding about the mysteries of the island... that's what hooked me in the beginning of the show.
*note- when I say "murder," I, in all likelihood, mean "attempted murder"
>>Does this mean Sayid always has to shoot Ben or that even if Sayid had not shot Ben, there would have been a course-correction to turn Ben into the man he becomes?>>
Assuming the closed time loop theory, Sayid always shoots Ben (and consequently, Ben clearly is not dead). So the Ben that shows up in season 2 already knows Sayid (and maybe other Losties who made it to '77; we haven't seen that yet though). And has been shot by him 20 years earlier. The Ben we have up till this point in the series is the Ben that got shot by Sayid in 1977, and Ben always knows that.
Nothing much to say that hasn't been well covered by other commenters. But to contribute to the straw poll- definitely favor keeping Sawyer and Juliet together. They may not have the red hot passion we've seen from Sawyer and Kate, but it seems to be working for them. Plus, I hate the thought of spending any more time on the Sawyer-Kate-Jack love triangle.
I couldn't have been the only one hoping that after the Dharmas voted to execute Sayid, that they'd have a second vote to kill Radzinsky. Bet the hands would have gone up much faster.
Count me in the Juliet/Sawyer and Closed Loop camps.
Sayid has always been so pragmatic, so I was very surprised he didn't just go along with Sawyer's plan.
And if Sawyer's SECOND plan had panned out (the one where Sayid overcomes him, shoots Phil and excapes) I think his cherished position of Head of Security would have been seriously in jeopardy. Especially after the meeting where he was clearly the hardest to convince. I think he was putting it all on the line there.
In regard to everyone saying that Sayid shot an innocent kid... Keep in mind that that "innocent kid" in all likelihood set a van on fire and set it on course to a hut with people in it. It looks like nobody was killed, but they easily could have been and Child Ben didn't seem concerned at all. And I know that Sayid didn't know any of this, but not only can we see in this episode why Ben will become "evil," but that he has already begun the journey. Even at this young age he will go to any means to get what he wants.
-R
Sayid knows the following about Ben:
-Ben is a liar, who lied the first moment Ben met him.
-Ben led the genocide against the Dharma initiative, even killing his own father in the process
-Ben kidnaps little children, like Alex and Walt.
-Ben was responsible for much of the mischief that led to many deaths of the Oceanic 815 survivors.
-Ben killed everyone on the freighter
-Ben contracts him to murder several people
As Sayid says to Ilana... Ben is a monster. Much like a Hitler, in Sayid's mind. Now he has the "opportunity" to kill the man responsible for the death of hundreds.
I think that's plenty reason for Sayid to pull the trigger.
To Anonymous at 11:08. Excellent point. Ben ain't that innocent as a little kid because of the burning bus into the house. He's still a kid, but he'll never grow up 'normal.'
While I generally agree with the closed-loop theory, oen thing that has been bothering me is future Ben laid up in the hospital on future craphole island. At this point we're supposed to assume he's there due to Sun's oar to his noggin, but would that be enough to keep him in that kind of state for long? Who told everyone else that a 'woman' went into the outrigger with the pilot? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Ben wakes up, tells everyone else where the pilot went, then collapses due to an injury no one can diagnose (being shot in the stomach in a parallel reality in the past). He won't wake up until past Ben is cured in the past, most likely by Jack. I know that doesn't follow the closed-loop theory, but I also can't imagine Sun being strong enough to seriously hurt Ben, especially with the Island working to heal him.
2 quick comments:
1. I found Sayid and Ben's intertwined history fascinating. I see it as a death spiral to the dark side. I think Sayid's act of shooting Ben will cement his future evilness. As a couple of posters have noted, he had put Sayid on a pedastal, only to be shot in the chest. In my mind, Ben is obviously not dead. When the writers of Lost want the audience to know someone is out of the picture, they make it pretty clear. One shot in the chest and then Sayid walks away? Must have been the drugs. He could have easily put a couple more bullets in his head before running off into the jungle. I think it is likely that this event and Sayid's realization that he is a killer will result in a much darker character.
2. I'm firmly in the time-loop camp. If there was any way of changing the future, I think Faraday would have been successful in his attempt at saving Charlotte.
RWGibson: He's every bit the monster he claims Ben is and he proved it by shooting in cold blood an obviously abused (hell, he saw it WITH HIS OWN EYES and even went so far as to empathize with the child to his very face before doing so), 12-year old who trusted in him enough to risk his own life to free him when Sayid KNEW (from Sawyer) he was going to be killed."
Sayid is (and always has been) one of my favorite characters, so a certain amount of my thinking is coming from the POV of someone who is trying to defend him. However, I also think that this makes sense logically:
Yes, Sayid shot a 12 year old boy. Yes, Sayid shot someone who was trying to save him. Yes, Sayid witnessed the abuse that young Ben received from his father. But does ANY of that take away from the adult Benjamin Linus that Sayid has known for three years? The same Ben that killed everyone in the Dharma initiative. The same Ben that had been sending Sayid all over the world to kill various people. The same Ben that Sayid knows to be a pathological liar who manipulates everyone he comes across?
The latter is the the Ben that Sayid had in mind when he pulled the trigger.
Let's bear in mind the Sayid that we have come to know. He's a thoughtful man but quick to take action when he has reached a decision. What he did in last night's episode falls right in line with his character.
I wonder if, in some way, Sayid thought that it was a mercy killing. Remember that when Sawyer is first talking to him, Sayid asked to be let go. But when Sawyer gives him that option later, Sayid refuses...AFTER he has seen the abuse that Ben has to suffer through. Maybe he thought that by killing Ben, not only would he be preventing the future atrocities that Ben commits but he would also be saving Ben from his father.
MikeD - Ben says "I really hated him"
I'm pretty sure he said "I really hate it here". I didn't get the impression that he killed his dad in this episode at all.
Maybe the action that would have changed history was Sayid not shooting Ben. Sometimes the lack of action is an action in itself.
Speaking of continuity errors... The Dharma folks are wearing glasses with anti-reflective coatings. These were *not* available in '77.
At first, I just noticed this with Sawyer, but now see that all the glasses have the telltale greenish reflections.
As to who should be with whom... no Sawyer and Kate! Boo... Stick with Juliet - because it works, and because he's a better person (finally!) for it.
Great job by Naveen this outing. I vote for Ben being... gone. Alternative universe/timeline. But I'm guessing another Island Resurrection. Much less interesting.
Isn't it long overdue for Hurley to pull some incredible act of heroism and compassion out of his pocket? Granted, cooking good food is a noble calling, but Hurley has so much more to bring.
I'm still waiting for the explanation of why Libby was watching over Hurley during his first stint in the booby hatch, but I can't make her 2004 age quite match up with a Hurley/Young Libby encounter in the 1970s.
Along the same lines, we're still owed an explanation of how Libby and Desmond linked up to put her boat into his hands. Random chance? I think not.
Juliet and Sawyer seem to bring out the best in each other. And Kate and Jack don't seem ready to completely unravel their ties.
I love the shake-up that Ben actually being dead would create. Be more interesting for me as an avid viewer. It's just so predictable to have Jack fix him again or the island heal him.
Thought Radzinsky was going to noodle the 2 airplane comments (Jin/Sayid) as well.
Cause someone above asked. I would not hesitate, not for a second, in pulling the trigger on baby Hitler. And if you know my family's history, you'd know why.
There's no way Ben's dead. It goes against everything the show's told us so far. It just doesn't make sense in the context of the show. I don't know if he'll be magically healed or if he's near death and that will set off the war with the hostiles as has been suggested here (anyone else catch Sayid mentioning "the incident"...that's not by accident), but I'm sure he'll be alive come next week.
As for Ben's father, Ben gassed him in a van on his birthday while the Purge was taking place.
Like LaFleur and to a degree last week's episode, "He's Our You" felt very season one-esque. Very character centric and not too focused on the mythology. It was also a traditional flashback episode. I liked it a lot. Good to see Sawyer still getting a lot of face time. I'm just waiting for the time to come, though, when Jack has to step up to the plate.
God, the chemisty between Sawyer, Juliet and Kate is incredible. I hope the writers maximize this storyline and don't just let it fizzle out.
I thought the comment from Hurley "who didn't see that coming" about Juliet/Sawyer was a little too cutesy and on the nose. An obvious tip of the hat to fans on the internet. Not the first time the show has done this or had Hurley as the voice of the fans... I'm not a fan of them writers doing this. And I hope they kill Hurley. He's worthless.
Crazy - attempting to murder mini-Ben- Sayid is somehow less badass than the quiet guy down the beach who could build you a lie detector out of dental floss and spit.
Anyone else think it odd how passionate Amy was about killing Sayid? Still think she was trying to defect to the hostiles when Juliet and Sawyer found her- now she wants to make sure the hostile in the camp doesn't tell on her.
Little Ben is either going to rise up-a la John Locke, or be saved by Jack/Juliet. If the island can keep Michael alive (which I am still trying to forgive it for) it can certainly keep Ben alive.
Kate and Jack are not in the same bungalow- Sawyer knew Kate was there when he gave her the little wave last week, after Jack walked off in a different direction. When he went to her door, it was to ask her why the hell she came back to screw up his life.
Juliet and Sawyer separate are intriguing, together they have the chemistry of cold paste. I'm all for no moves on the relationship front at the moment, however. Leave them in the cellophane world for now, but will one of the O3 who hasn't been Dharma brainwashed at least ASK where the rest of the survivors are? Because right now the fact that Juliet and Sawyer so blissfully don't give a care about anyone else is starting to bug me, a lot.
Alan could you please email Darlton like you emailed Chris Fedak about Chuck earlier, because not knowing if theres more to the schism between Sayid and Ben is really preventing me from getting into anything else about the episode, even the last scene. I need to know
I can't make up my mind about who Sawyer should be with!!
I was gung-hop for Juliet, but then the every time Sawyer looks at Kate it gets me. And then we she turns away (can't look at Sawyer) when he brings Sayid back to Dharmaville and she is standing next to Juliet... I wanted Sawyer and Kate to be together.
Man, I realize how much cooler Juliet is without Kate around! They need to work Jack back into this love connection somehow to up the ante.
Why do they need to leave the 70s?
In season one, a hot topic of discussion was why all of the survivors were so eager to return home. All of their back stories indicated disastrous, troubled lives back home.
I think the same discussion should be addressed now. Why does Sawyer need to leave the 70s? He has never been so respected or admired as he is now. This goes for a lot of the other characters as well. Just being on the LOST island allowed them to stop running from their problems... so what does it matter where they are in time?
I'm wondering if Ben does actually remember being shot by Sayid. Think about Faraday's visit to Desmond in this season's opener: Desmond didn't "remember" it until he "dreamed" it in 2007. Seems to me we have more to learn about this loop than what Faraday knows (or has told us). Do you not remember future-people coming to visit you? Does the universe course-correct so that you can't? Or is it just Desmond who works like this because he is special?
Maybe it's because of Ben handing Sayid "A Separate Reality," but I'm not longer convinced that we're in a time loop. I mean, I'm pretty sure we are, my gut tells me we are, but Ms. Hawking did say the O6 had to recreate the crash almost exactly or else unpredictable events will happen. We (think?) know Ben wasn't on Oceanic 815, but he's on Ajira 316. Same with Frank Lapidus. Right there we have two things not consistent with the circumstances of the first crash. Did this cause a rip in time? ARE we in an alternate universe?
To Anon at 12:00 -- While anti-glare glasses didn't exist in the 70s, they are necessary for actors to wear. The lights on set are very bright. You wouldn't be able to see their eyes if they didn't wear anti-glares.
SteveB: This is Ben we're talking about. Faking an injury is actually pretty tame by his standards.
Brendan McCarthy,
You have to remember this is Ben we're talking about:) It isn't his nature to sit in a darkened room. He'd be mixing it up with the survivors, manipulating people, scheming his way to the main island. He wouldn't use this time to catch up on some sleep.
I will be very dissapointed if Ben survives. The audience is already aware of the "closed-loop theory" because Faraday has explained it. The only way the episode's ending can be dramatic is if it changes what we expect to happen. Otherwise, they should just have the episode end with him surviving or Sayid shooting blanks.
Okay, I'm starting to come around to the "Ben survives and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy" theory. It would explain the scene between adult Ben and Sayid in Costa Rica, which at first I thought was just filler. "Why show a scene from like a week ago, from Sayid's perspective?" But what if Ben knows Sayid is a killer because Sayid tried to kill him... because Ben told him he's a killer? It's like the compass Richard gives to Locke because he remembers Locke giving it to him. HEAD PAIN!!
Or was it the Dominican Republic? Wherever it is that Sayid was trying to atone for his sins.
I thought the comment from Hurley "who didn't see that coming" about Juliet/Sawyer was a little too cutesy and on the nose. An obvious tip of the hat to fans on the internet. Not the first time the show has done this or had Hurley as the voice of the fans... I'm not a fan of them writers doing this. And I hope they kill Hurley. He's worthless.
Jorge Garcia is the best actor on this show. And you're a meanie.
In season one, a hot topic of discussion was why all of the survivors were so eager to return home. All of their back stories indicated disastrous, troubled lives back home.
Well, not everyone wanted to go home. Some folks such as Jin and Sun probably would have wanted to stay if not for the baby-death issue. Rose wanted to stay because the island cured her cancer. One might argue that Sawyer didn't have much to live for at home and Kate was a freaking fugitive and if she went home she'd go to jail. (Sigh. Really should have gone to jail.)
And given that the Island Crazy was ramping up, hell, I'd want to go home just to get away from it. Most people probably ended up with a reason to go home just to avoid that.
That said, the 70's so far are darned nice there.
Anonymous 11:55 - I stand corrected. Ben does say "I really hate it here". I think I heard what I wanted to hear the first couple of times. I'm becoming more convinced of the CIA/MK Ultra - Dharma connection. That might even explain why they had access to Tazers in 1977. This line of thinking is leading me to a different "grand unified theory of Lost", but I need to do some more cogitating before I'm ready to talk about that. Just one more thing, though. The CIA had a "remote viewing" program where they used psychics to, allegedly, look in on events which were happening far away. Walt's importance may have something to do with this. In the season three premiere, Ben says something along the lines of "We got more than we bargained for with Walt".
Why does Sawyer need to leave the 70s? He has never been so respected or admired as he is now. This goes for a lot of the other characters as well. Just being on the LOST island allowed them to stop running from their problems... so what does it matter where they are in time?
Does LaFleur want to leave? He seems happy and he's working with the remnants of the Oceanic Six in order to keep them from jeopardizing the good thing he has going.
Jack and Kate do seem like they're the kind of people who always need to be moving on (running away). They had to leave the island, then get back to the island, now get back to the future.
Where is Faraday? Did he return to the mainland at some point between '74 and '77? Is he on the island?
and a "clicker emptor" warning - don't go to the ABC Lost site if you don't want to know whether Ben is alive or dead at the end of "He's Our You". The one or two line synopsis is a bit of a spoiler
I'm under the impression that Sayid's hatred with Ben lies somewhere with the idea that he blames Ben for losing his wife???? I could be off with that - but it's possible that he later finds out the murder was somehow linked to Ben - or wouldn't have happened if Ben wasn't around....I could be totally off - having a hard time remembering the details of that death...but that seems like a solid enough reason for him to hate Ben.
I definitely want Sawyer and Juliet to stay together. Though I kind of thought Sawyer was going to tell/ask Jack something, and seemed a bit surprised when Kate answered the door. Maybe that was just me, though.
I'm glad to see some other people have been getting the same uneasy feeling I've had about Amy - and I think (commentor) amy is right on the nose that she is attempting to defect to the Hostiles - that would explain why Ethan survives the purge.
After having been suspicious of Juliet for much longer than she deserved after she joined the Losties, I'm firmly in her camp now. Sawyer's had 3 years with Juliet, and only 100 days with Kate. And on that point - Sawyer's had 3 years with Dharma and only 100 with the Losties. I don't think he was brainwashed so much as he became a part of the Dharma community - it's just odd from the viewer's perspective since we've had years of him with the Losties and only a month or so of him with Dharma.
a little more of a coherent summary to what i was saying about ben/sayid - what if sayid found out that ben had a part in nadia's death - in order to manipulate him into being ben's hitman? THAT seems reason enough for him being so resentful. i don't know if i am way off...but it's the only thing i can figure out..
Hannah: It doesn't look to me like Libby was looking after Hurley, but was just another whackjob in the looney bin.
Also, i think in S3 or S4 when they are living at the DI compound, Sawyer says he doesn't want to go back. IIRC.
Is this really a closed-loop theory of someone such as Desmond possesses the power to change events in time?
Count me in as another fan of Sawyer/Juliet. And I hated Juliet until this season, and was a huge Sawyer/Kate fan until LaFleur.
It didn't even occur to me that Little Ben was supposed to be dead. I think him becoming a killer because Sayid shot him, is a much more interesting story.
• Am I the only one who briefly wondered if the much-talked-about Oldham would turn out to be Faraday?
I did too, but that was just wishful thinking. I miss Faraday and I really want to know why he's not around anymore.
• The more I see of Radzinsky, the more I begin to wonder if he actually committed suicide in the Swan, or if Inman blew his partner's brains out just to shut him up.
Word.
Otherwise, you pretty much summed up everything I had in my mind.
If Ben knows Sayid is gonna get back to the island to try to kill him... why don't he try to kill Sayid ?
I was just thinking BLADE RUNNER!! during the whole Oldham scene. That was the last time I saw the actor.
Also, I was thinking that maybe the Hostiles are like Cylons and they were designed by DHARMA, but rebelled against their creators. That's why they never age. I don't know if that's a lame idea, but it could be interesting.
@ Tyro.k.y
"I'm tired of the love games. I need some Ol' Greg."
I wanna drink Bailey's from Sayid's shoe. Is that wrong?
Just a small point of clarification...do we know who was sitting outside of Hurley's mental institution that Sayid killed before busting Hurley out? What about the two men Sayid killed in the motel room? I assume they would be working for the same person as the person sitting outside of the institution. Were they Widmore's men?
Jack and Kate do seem like they're the kind of people who always need to be moving on (running away). They had to leave the island, then get back to the island, now get back to the future.
I really have to defend Jack, in this case. While Kate has remained the same in her switching between "Badass Convict With a Heart of Gold" and "Constantly Getting-in-the-way Whore Stupidhead", Jack has really developed over the series.
Where before he was single-minded, whether it was reviving Charlie, or getting off of the island, or even attempting to kill Locke (a crown that goes to that bastard Ben Linus), I think he only wanted to get back to the island because it hurt him so much to be away from it. After watching "The Little Prince", I went out and read the book it's named after, and it really echoes that story, in that he was just compelled to be back home, and the island had become his home. It's just a shame it took him so long to realise it. And now he's back, the only thing he's done that anyone sees as amiss, is ask towards the wellbeing of Sayid. While it's easy to see why James would be all 'my way or the highway' with Sayid -- after all, 100 days versus three years has one clear winner -- to expect Jack to get this straight away is a little much.
Then, take Kate. She kills her dad. Lies, runs, inadvertently kills her first love, ends up lying some more, then gets caught. Ends up on an island where she continues to lie, screw people over, lead Jack and Sawyer on, attempt to screw over Sawyer to get on the raft, get all their guns took, have some of the most repetitive flashbacks ever, let Jin die to get off of the island, for SOME REASON NOT GIVE AARON TO A RELATIVE, and even off the island continue to screw over both Jack and Sawyer.
THEN, she gets back to the island, after being all coy about what the lunch she did with Aaron, and this is all three years later, AND SHE'S STILL HUNG UP ON SAWYER AND RUINING THINGS FOR PEOPLE.
Long story ever so slightly longer, Kate deserves no one. That said, this means that Jack needs a new love interest, because he doesn't deserve Juliet.
In other news, I remember Darlton talking about how the key element of the Oceanic 6/5 is that on their journey back, they would ALL WANT TO go back. Does Sayid not count? He had no choice in coming back, just like Ben said he had no choice with all his questionable deeds.
Sucks to be Sayid. No one else in the Six got their love taken the way he did, nor did they come back against their will, nor were they subjected to Hostile Treatment.
The LOST authors are playing a delightful balancing game between MYSTERY and SCIENCE FICTION. In mysteries, the audience has the ability to evaluate the truth of the events observed to reach a logical conclusion. Ben is dead because Sayid, with his knowledge of the flow of time, knows justice is served by killing a very young Ben.
In science fiction, time travel is possible because everything conceivable is conceivably possible. Want to transport from place to place by disassembly and reassembly of the constituent atomic particles? All righty then. Accept the premise and go back to the story line, or don’t and watch normal people display normal emotions in contrived reality entertainments.
So, as a fan of this show, I guess the question about Sayid killing an adolescent Ben comes down to if the authors want a mystery where Ben lives, or if they want science fiction where Ben dies but doesn’t stop existing. Confusing? Yes. LOST? For sure :)
The only thing that Sayid's shooting of Ben had accomplished for me was disgust. Toward Sayid.
Also, if this episode was an attempt to verify or confirm that Sayid was a "killer" then it wasted my time.
Of course Sayid is a killer. He's a human being. Just about any human being can be a killer for a variety of reasons. Why do human beings believe that only certain types are capable of taking a life? I get the feeling that this episode's writer(s) seemed to be stuck in this mindset.
some of the comments on this episode have got me thinking about the character of Kate, and why we're all kind of turning on her now.
I think it's because the writers have never really explained her, deep-down, and so now she just seems kind of impossible to figure out. Worse, some of the things they have her doing don't make any sense.
That she was forced to kill her mother's boyfriend to get free (and to free her mother) and thus become a fugitive makes her noble and tortured, and I liked that well enough. That she was clever enough to know how to track people, and also to elude capture by the Feds, made her smart and cunning: liked that too. That she did have this heart of gold thing in her-- she aided Sawyer's ex-girlfriend-whom-he-conned, (and in exchange got to see her mom, briefly), that was appealling too.
But what's with the OTHER streak in her: like: remember that thing where she held up the bank and shot all those people so she could get that little toy airplane memento out of a safe deposit box. WHAT UP WITH THAT? Or, she just kinda got sick of her marriage to that nice cop one day cause she "doesn't DO taco night!"
She's all self-righteous about taking care of Aaron, until she's not; she's all lovey dovey with Jack but she's willing to throw him over when she happens to be locked in a polar bear cage with Sawyer. I mean James.
She's certainly not a villain, but she's no heroine either-- but rather than this making her kind of an interesting mix-of-different things, it just seems to make her incomprehensible and irritating to me.
It should also be said that the writers haven't given her anything truly fun and interesting to do for a long time. Although let's just say that the scene in which she and Josh Holloway played "I Never" back in season 2 remains some of the best writing and acting that's been on TV in recent years, period.
Jack's changes over the years have been steady: from being the "fixer" to the drunk, lost dude with a beard, to wherever he is now, a guy who seems to have "let go" a bit, but with a smoldering restlessness still.
But Kate has been so many things, and put in so many situations, that we're all just left now wondering, what's really at the center of this character? After 5 years, you'd think we'd have a clue.
So sad to see that so many lost fans on the Sepinwall blog were actually rather hoping that, when we arrived back on the island this winter, that Kate would not wake up from the place where she'd landed in that pond.
Writers, directors of LOST? Do you read this blog? Why don't you give Kate something to do this season which, as Hurley might say, would be majorly awesome? Kate's one of your lead characters, but for the longest time now you've given her-- and us-- nuttin'.
I used to be a major Kate/Sawyer 'shipper, mostly because they had such fantastic chemistry, and because Kate is only marginally interesting when seen through Sawyer's longing, lovestruck eyes.
HOWEVER, after seeing him happy and at peace with a woman who doesn't jerk him around... NO. Stay with Juliet! Buh bye Freckles! Stay with Jack. You two mediocre characters deserve each other.
What, if instead of killing an abused 12-year old who is in obvious hero-worship mode, Sayid took this opportunity to try and transform the young Ben to grow up good? Intervention at a critical point in someone's young life be the one possibility to change history?
Couldn't Sayid, who knows the power of evil so well, lead the young Ben away from the dark side, and himself, to redemption?
*raises hand*
Call me a terrible person, but I still want Sawyer and Freckles to end up together. This may be because Saywer has always been my favorite and Juliet is bland so I hate them as a couple. But it's also because I was so influenced by the first season of Lost where the commonalities between Sawyer and Kate them threw them together (in a deliciously irresistable way). They both have tough histories and family situations, both of them have such tenderness that they try to hide underneath they callousness. Both of them wrestle with guilt.
When Kate is with Jack, she is never relaxed, and he never truly is able to be vulnerable. Kate relaxes with Sawyer because she doesn't have to be perfect. Jack relaxes with Juliet because she can take care of herself. I'm all about a switcheroo.
I agree with the (very) few posters who think Kate's getting a raw deal these days. She can certainly be annoying, and has been (or, even worse in TV world, boring) recently. But she is part of the glue of the show. And I'm sure (well, I'm hoping) that she'll return to our good graces (or at least to being interesting) by the end of the season. But hopefully not as Sawyer's partner.
About who the heart of the show it - Jack & Kate, or Locke, or Ben, etc., I don't think it's so simple. I know everybody has their favorites, but one of what I hope the deep issues of the show is going to be about is learning how to break a cycle of violence - the characters are trapped in it now. We need all of them to play certain parts (Jin and Sun, Desmond and Penny, Faraday, etc) to BREAK this cycle that they're trapped in. That's why Desmond's character is so important. Because maybe he can help them.
But Sayid's shooting of Ben is the perfect example of how the cycle is working as of now. Sayid is angry at Ben for being such a monster to him, so he shoots young Ben, which makes Ben grow up to be such a monster.
Those who are complaining about Ben not being dead so the 'emotional' impact of the shooting being empty seem to miss some pretty heavy future possibilities - for instance, what's going to happen when (if?) Sayid once again meets up with '08 Ben? Now there's a scene! What kind of understanding might Sayid REALLY come to when he faces 08 Ben, both of them knowing about 77, and really GETS the consequences of his actions?
Ben isn't dead. Sayid took aim at his heart, but Ben has the rare condition of situs invertus where his heart is on his right side, not his left. His injury is serious, but not fatal.
At least that's my theory.
Whoops, forgot that she didn't kill her dad. Only her dad's boyfriend.
My bad.
"Kate/Sawyer: chemistry
Kate/Jack: no chemistry
Juliet/Sawyer: no chemistry"
Hey Owen I'm with you!
Ben's heart isn't on the wrong side of his chest. His problem is he has a heart two sizes too small. Hence, he survives the attack.
Omagus said
"I wonder if, in some way, Sayid thought that it was a mercy killing."
Best comment for me. Not that it's right but that's the only thing that explains the shot for me. Because as others had pointed out, Sayyid could have killed Ben on the dock. But killing little Ben might prevent the massacre -- and would prevent the young Ben from suffering more -- at his father's hands, at the Other's hands, and the suffering that people undergo when they are drawn to evil and perform evil actions that cannot ever be redemmed.
It was more than revenge. Sayid is already damned and he knows it -- this way he may save Ben's soul...
grim good stuff but don't try this at home
Madaline wrote:
>>If Ben knows Sayid is gonna get back to the island to try to kill him... why don't he try to kill Sayid >>
'Cause that isn't how it works. Ben knows that Sayid shoots him. But he also knows he gets better (as otherwise, he wouldn't be standing there in the first place). Ben couldn't stop Sayid from shooting him in the past any more than Sayid couldn't have shot him in the first place. These things always happened. And always will.
Sincere thanks for laying out the timeline issues that I'd been wondering about.
I am loving the 70s Sawyer, and it was satisfying to see him end up with Juliet. As hot and heavy as Sawyer and Kate were, Kate's a walking disaster and I hate to see Sawyer get dragged back down again.
So yes, Sawyer and Juliet fan here.
"Best comment for me. Not that it's right but that's the only thing that explains the shot for me. Because as others had pointed out, Sayyid could have killed Ben on the dock. But killing little Ben might prevent the massacre -- and would prevent the young Ben from suffering more -- at his father's hands, at the Other's hands, and the suffering that people undergo when they are drawn to evil and perform evil actions that cannot ever be redemmed."
Killing Ben would NOT have prevented the Purge. It was Richard who orchestrated the Purge. All Ben did was help . . . and personally kill Roger. Even if Ben was not around to help, Richard would have found another way to get rid of the Dharma Initiative. He managed to get rid of the U.S. Army presence on the island back in 1954.
That she was forced to kill her mother's boyfriend to get free (and to free her mother) and thus become a fugitive makes her noble and tortured, and I liked that well enough.
Kate DID NOT kill Wayne Jensen for noble reasons. She DID NOT kill him to save her mother from an abusive husband.
Kate killed Wayne because she discovered that he was her father . . . and she could not bear the idea of sharing his blood.
Why are fans still believing that the lie Kate told Diane in "Left Behind" that she killed Wayne to save the latter? If you want to know the truth, watch "What Kate Did" again.
This is the best Lost blog ever. I have several points in response to things said above (which no one will read because the new ep is tomorrow):
I don't hate Kate and Jack. I just hate them together. I love Juliet and Sawyer but I wouldn't have been angry if Juliet got with Jack and Sawyer went to Kate. Jack and Kate's attraction to each other lacks spark and/or mystery. Now that Suliet has been established, I want it to last.
Hurley does very little for me. All the actors are great and all the characters add something to the show. However, at this point Hurley is the 12 year old simpleton kid that says the things everyone else is too jaded or busy to say. There's not much future in that, to me.
As for 12 year olds, I love Sayid and I hate the fact that Sayid is made out to be the villain here. He turned Ben into a villain mainly because Ben channeled his vengence for Nadia's death into the murder of Widmore's associates. I like what someone else said above: Sayid kills for a reason. It's not "murder". The chicken had to be killed in order to eat it. Maybe he discovers that Widmore's people didn't have to die and that Ben lied to him (also, as said above). Also, remember that Sayid didn't have the benefit of Faraday's time travel axioms. He just got to the island; Sayid actually thinks that killing a boy/man (who later caused so much pain) might be for the greater good..maybe even bringing back the people that Sayid killed.
Lastly, I agree with the suspicion of Amy. In fact, one huge transition in the show is that now a good portion of our Oceanic survivors know a lot more than we do as viewers. I found it frustrating when characters would fail to ask Faraday, Charlotte, Miles, or even Juliette questions. Now, Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Juliette and Faraday (wherever he is) know almost all there is to know. As we're really no longer on the journey with them, the show has a slightly different tone.
I like what someone else said above: Sayid kills for a reason. It's not "murder". The chicken had to be killed in order to eat it. Maybe he discovers that Widmore's people didn't have to die and that Ben lied to him (also, as said above).
This sounds like an excuse for murder. And it's typical human behavior. I find it amazing at the number of excuses human beings will drum up to commit an act of violence against someone else - whether in real life or in the world of fiction.
As far as I'm concerned, Sayid had committed the attempted murder of an innocent boy. Even if that boy grew up to be a dangerous and murderous adult, he was still an innocent in 1977. And Sayid knew it. He tried to kill Ben anyway.
But she is part of the glue of the show. And I'm sure (well, I'm hoping) that she'll return to our good graces (or at least to being interesting) by the end of the season. But hopefully not as Sawyer's partner.
Kate is certainly NOT the glue of the show in my eyes. I can think of countless number of episodes that did NOT feature Kate that I ended up enjoying very much.
They should have gotten rid of her character back in late Season 3 or early Season 4, as far as I'm concerned.
"and a "clicker emptor" warning"
psst. "emptor" means buyer in Latin, so... that meant "clicker buyer."
I think you meant to retain the "caveat" part. Word order in Latin doesn't mean as much as it does in English, it's all about the roots and word endings. Literally, the two words are "beware buyer," not "buyer beware."
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