Quick spoilers for tonight's "Dexter" coming up just as soon as I fix the disposal... As I've mentioned, when I was taking notes on this particular episode, I jotted down the thought, "I care so much more about Lundy than I do at Dexter at this point." So with him apparently bleeding out(*) at the hands of Trinity, I'm not sure how much more invested I'm going to be in the rest of this season.
(*) Let me once again remind you that talking about the previews qualifies as violating the No Spoilers rule, so if Lundy was shown to be alive, or dead, in the previews for next week's episode, I don't wanna hear about it.
Keith Carradine was great, as was John Lithgow, and the moment where the two crossed paths was as tense as it was designed to be, especially since both of them realized on some level who the other one was.
But the stuff with the regular characters? Blah, at best. Not only do we have to keep suffering through Batista/Laguerta, but now Quinn and the reporter's relationship gets more screen time. It's as if the writers, having halved the number of boring Angel and Maria relationship scenes by putting the two of them together, had to scramble to fill that space with a second boring romance involving a character we care even less about.
Dexter got to go on the hunt, and be scolded by Harry's ghost again about the limits of married life. But there's a rote quality to his kills at this point, as if we're just marking time until his path crosses with Trinity's.
Also, because this is the last episode I've seen in advance, the episode five review will be later (and, unless there's a big improvement, shorter) than usual.
What did everybody else think?
52 comments:
Hi. When I go out of my way to remind you not to talk about the previews in your comments, please don't talk about the previews. Okay?
I thought the episode was so-so. I too liked the Lundy/Trinity Killer interaction and I also liked when Dexter realized that he had real feelings for his new family. But the first few minutes had me confused as I thought that the lady cop was the same one that dated Angel last year. It took me a few minutes to realize she was different.
I actually really liked the cat-and-mouse with the cop who'd killed her family. But yeah, anything that wasn't Lundy or Dexter related was a bit of a yawn. And I have no idea why Quinn gets any screen time at all.
If Lundy is indeed gone after this, I'll be really sad to see him go. I agree that I was more invested in his Trinity hunt than in Dexter's familial angst.
Also, it would be incredibly emotionally manipulative to give the Deb/Lundy happy ending and then kill him off. If you're going to be emotionally manipulative, at least be a bit more subtle about it, you know?
How heavy-handed was the "Don't go disappearing!" or whatever Deb said in the parking lot right before the shots? Ugh.
Like you, I'll be disappointed if Lundy does bleed out right there. If he does, then we'll be forced to spend more time on this show's bad relationships that I don't care about one bit.
I too love Lundy and would hate to see him go. But there was a moment where I went 'Huh'. Lundy spends 10 seconds near Trinity and his spidey serial killer sense fires that something isn't right. But, he's spent hours around Dexter and his spidey sense doesn't tingle. Seems weird to me especially considering how skittish Dexter is around him.
Lundy knows a male with two kids is getting killed at the very location he's staying. Lundy suspects strongly he has crossed paths with the person who will be doing the killing. Lundy is alone in his room. Lundy hears a knock on the door. Lundy opens door promptly without so much as looking through the peephole.
Questionable.
I'm right there with you with not enjoying the side relationships on the show. Still, it seems odd to pick on the Quinn/reporter relationship, since they spent about a minute and a half on it and it directly led to Lundy's supposed? death.
Really interesting episode. I almost feel as if the killer cop could've been a longer arc --- sort of a secondary 'Big Bad' villain in a season like the Skinner last year or how the vacation murderers seem to be shaping up to be this season. Dexter facing off against someone with an equal knowledge of police procedure would've been an interesting sidebar to a more cerebral major villain.
Seems like purposely bumping into Lundy was a pretty dumb move for a killer as smart as Trinity, but then again, I guess the point of the show is that every murderer has one flaw that can be picked on (even Dexter has his blood sample souvenirs). I liked that Lundy immediately picked up on how odd it was and made notes of the guy. I just wonder if he told Deb about his encounter or if they were too busy, uh, doing other stuff....
At this point, it seems like the writers want Rita and the kids to be on vacation as much as Dexter does. Are they going to get anything to do this season?
to me it kinda looks like Quinn is getting more screen time as his character seems to be developing into something more benevolent, he may indeed be a future victim of Dexters, either way Quinn seems to be hiding something
Maybe I should have realized this earlier, but this episode really drove home that the reason Dexter's co-workers aren't suspicious of him is not that they're stupid or imperceptive...they're just too wrapped up in their own issues to see him for what he is. Angel and LaGuerta see his aloofness and secrecy not as a reason to suspect him, but an excuse to unburden themselves of their secret. Earlier, when Quinn was trying to suck up to Dexter after he's caught pulling a Herc/Carver, he didn't show any recognition of Dexter's personality, as shown with the gift of Dolphins' tickets and the invitation to a post-work beer. The only people who were really suspicious of him were Doakes and Lundy...people who didn't seem to have much of a life outside the job and who understood the true mindset of a killer.
MM...Lundy was always suspicious about Dexter. Part of me suspects this is why he wanted Dexter's help so much: he knew that Dexter could get in the head of someone like Trinity. His speech to Dexter about the thrill of the chase (ep2?) hinted at this possibility. Also, he's not about to bust him given his feelings for Deb. (Then again, he might not be about to bust anyone...)
I've seen the future: Alas, I saw Lundy as Deb's soon-to-be ghost of murders past (think Harry/Dexter). Now you know, so that you won't have a heartattack when the ghost of Keith Carradine comes wandering into a Deb-scene, lit up by that fluorescent, soap operaish light.
And all the Quinn-talk got me thinking: am I forgetting something, or did the writers just drop the Quinn-investigated-by-the-IA-arc (which was the only Quinn-related plot even remotley interesting imo)?
Vacation Murdererer knowing all about police procedures... Quinn getting loads of seemingly meaningless screen time... The internal affairs investigation thing... Stealing money... Couldn't be him... Could it?
Are we sure it was Trinity that took out Lundy and Deb? Although it would be a highly-unlikely coincidence, my first thought was that they were victims of the vacation killer. They were in the parking lot of a hotel, and I think they took Lundy's keys and wallet. Doesn't seem like Trinity's MO. Of course, maybe he was just trying to make it look like the Vacation Killer. Just a thought.
This was probably the first episode I liked of the season, but it still had many of the same flaws as the others have had so far.
First off, I found it interesting that Dexter finally kill a woman (a first for him, IIRC). As evil as she was, I figured that the sight of him murdering a female would cause uneasiness in some viewers. IMO, this is a good thing. I think the show works better when you root for Dexter, but don't feel entirely good about yourself for doing so. I think the show is much stronger when he's the anti-protagonist, like Tony Soprano, rather than a heroic vigilante. This causes a good deal of introspection and makes him a more engaging character.
I'm not sure how much I buy Dexter's "realization" that he needs his family. If we assume Harry is Dexter's subconscious (rather than assuming Dexter is talking to a ghost), then he is clearly conflicted. I thought the breaking of the mug was an effective if not obvious metaphor at re-establishing this -- it's just not possible to be a serial killer and maintain a normal family life.
Perhaps thanks in part to the code of Harry, Dexter realizes that he's not callous enough to kill his family like the cop did. But he does seem to realize that the two parts of his life cannot coexist forever. For the first time, he was admittedly okay with the reality of them discovering his secret. This could play out in an interesting way.
I wasn't too thrilled with very much else. Ditto the boring relationship comments from above. Any screen time without Dexter, Lundy, or Trinity just seems like wasted time to me at this point.
@JamesG:
Dexter has definitely killed his fair share of women. His first kill ever was that female nurse (seen in flashbacks). There was also the woman who was keeping immigrants (I think) locked up in their shed. There was another woman, but I don't remember her significance. And finally, he killed Lila at the close of Season 2.
oops, actually, I think there were just the three I described, not a fourth.
I guess I'm enjoying this season more than most of you. It's not as good as previous seasons (at least not yet), but it's not without its charms. This episode had one of the best moments and one of Michael C. Hall's best performances -- the moment when Dexter realized that he really does care about his family, may in fact love them. The way that realization moved across his face brought me to tears. There! I said it!
Whoa whoa whoa. Everybody. Did Anonymous and I see a different episode ending than the rest of you? Trinity kills one middle-aged man by bludgeoning. Lundy and Deb are SHOT, TOGETHER. And then ROBBED. It was the Vacation Murderers!
I thought this was one of the best episodes in a while. It was interesting to see Dexter go after a woman for once and I thought his interactions with her and his search for evidence was really well done.
I think maybe, Alan, you've reached the point of "that's it for me" with this show. You really haven't had anything positive to say about it in years. If you don't stop watching it, it might at lest be time to take it out of blog rotation.
Byron, it felt very much like Trinity staged it to look like the vacation murderers. I feel like Lundy would have reacted much differently if a random dude with a gun had shown up than if all of a sudden the creepy guy he had just seen that day appeared.
I think the look on Lundy's face before he was plugged meant he recognized whoever it was.
Perhaps it was Trinity...or the real Vacation Killer, who is going to end up being someone Lundy (and the audience) knows. Perhaps it's Quinn. Possibly Anton (though having Deb date two serial killers is too stupid even for this show).
semicolwin said... Dexter has definitely killed his fair share of women.
You're right about this. I did remember Lila and even the mercy killing of Camila from last season, but this just seemed different somehow. I thought it was an interesting change from who usually ends up on the cutting table.
The other thing that was possibly foreshadowed during the episode was Angel/LaGuerta's secret relationship being used as the reason for throwing out the vacation murderer trial. Are they setting the stage for the murderer to be caught, freed, and eventually hunted down by Dexter? Could that really be the entire motivation for such a boring relationship subplot?
could it not have been anton that shot deb/lundy?
The shooter was either the Vacation Killer or Trinity trying to copycat the VK. Hopefully it's Quinn so there's a reason for someone to get rid of him - he adds nothing to this show as far as I'm concerned.
Same for Angel and LaGuerta. What's the point of having them sleeping together and what will it have to do with Dexter other than making him into Dear Abby?
The bright spot about Dexter having that sappy realization about missing his family is that there's still time to have something exciting and compelling happen to throw that idea into a little chaos.
I think this was the best episode of the season, and while they can only kill Lundy (if he's dead) and put Deb in grave peril once per season, I'm thinking this pisses Dexter off to a point we haven't seen since Lila tried to kill Rita's kids. I'm sure the margins of the show will continue to be boring, but hopefully Hall and Lithgow can face off in a way the show never quite achieved with Smits last year.
And I disagree about the killings being rote. Sure, the boxer from the premiere was boring, but this chick was hot, crazy, and at least a somewhat viable opponent, someone who created an interesting (if obvious) parallel, and gave Hall some great moments like when he said "Surprise!" with the syringe in his mouth or "What is it with you and rape?"
Few Things:
* We don't know who shot Deb and Lundy. We saw someone pick Lundy's pocket. This leads me to suspect it wasn't Trinity - it was either the vacation murderer, or in a fun twist, just a random act of violence. And the best thing is that we were set up to expect Trinity to go after Lundy, and the tension had just been buildings in that scene...then BAM. We see Deb is shot first. Great last shot.
*While some might argue that Dexter seeing himself in his kill may have been a bit much (or at the very least, a bit too HOUSE like with the spot on parallel..), I actually thought it was an interesting touch. Yes, Dexter is a sociopath, but he's learned to adapt very differently. Harry's code taught him now not to get caught, but it also inadvertently gave him a set of principals that have made him operate different than your average killer in ways that not even he expected. Which leads to...
*...the relative oddness of him "missing" or feeling OK with his family, at least on some sense. While I'd kind of like him to off Rita because she's gotten more and more grating, it makes sense that he doesn't. Part of enjoyment in the kill seems to come from the challenge; he's doing this all to make things better...and for him, this seems to add to the balance. Its a stretch, but somehow I get it.
This said, I enjoyed this episode far more than any others this season. It was a great kill for Dexter (very Season 1 esque) - and those kind of long speeches and drawn out chases have been missed. I also really hope Lundy isn't dead, but it sure as hell wasn't looking too good.
I know a lot of people hate Deb, but geez...poor Deb. Her boyfriend dead (again), she's injured (again), her life is effed up (again). Well, I should add that I'm assuming Lundy is dead, I haven't seen the previews. He looked pretty gosh darn dead.
The ep wasn't remarkable but MCH earned his Emmy nomination in the scene where Dexter realizes that he really does care for his family.
I think maybe, Alan, you've reached the point of "that's it for me" with this show. You really haven't had anything positive to say about it in years. If you don't stop watching it, it might at lest be time to take it out of blog rotation.
Quite possibly. On the other hand, I am still watching it, because there are just enough good things to keep me around. (Hell, even season 3 had a few good episodes in the final third, which I praised extensively.) And people will complain if I stop posting about it, even if the posts are mostly negative/disinterested. This way, at least it gives everybody an opportunity to talk about the show.
But if things don't pick up significantly, it'll probably get Costanza'd.
I didn't like season 3, although it grew to be entertaining in the last quarter. But I don't get the negative comments to S4 so far. While I agree that anything LaGuerta/Angel/Quinn-related is boring, those subplots are absolutely tiny. It's hardly worth getting so het up about.
The Dex/Zoe story was really interesting and fun, and the Trinity/Lundy stuff was excellent. Fantastic cliffhanger, too. I'm more excited about this season (at ep4, no less) than I was about season 3. Really, I don't get why this year things are suddenly disappointing you so much.
I agree that this has been the best episode so far - I think it is intriguing that it could be the Vacation Murderer who shot Lundy and Deb (I know Deb is a main character, so she's not dead, but if one was to assume Lundy dying, then shouldn't Deb be too? I hope Lundy does live though, because he made Deb's storyline bearable for me), though he only took Lundy's stuff but not Deb's purse, so maybe it is Trinity after all.
Quinn and the reporter is so boring it made Angel and LaGuerta seem interesting. But if Quinn turns out to be the vacation killer dude, then, that's awesome. (But the Miami police should have a better screening process, what with this week's policewoman, Doakes the supposed BHB, and Dexter the real BHB.)
All that Dexter/family stuff makes me think he will end up telling someone about his murderous side. Which, if done well, would be a really good thing for the show.
And what's up with that tap dripping? I hope it means that Dexter will have to scramble for a bit in the eps to come, since that was something I enjoyed immensely in the second season.
Definitely the best of the season thus far, and I have a feeling Lundy doesn't bleed out.
As I understand it, Deb finds out at some point in the books, so I'm guessing she'll be the one in on the secret by the end of the season--not to mention he was pretty much ready to tell her by the end of S2, and she's got all of Harry's CI files. Sure, I recall something about Camilla destroying everything about the crime scene, but obviously if there's still information about Laura Moser, there may be information about her children...
Does anyone else think that the show works best as a CSI-style series where a murderer is the protagonist? By that I mean, Dexter's weakest point nearly every year is its story arcs. I prefer arc-driven series to standalones like Law & Order by FAR, however it just doesn't seem to work very well for Dexter.
All each arc as done is water down the true essence and insanity of the character, by introducing a "worse" character every year: First season had Biney, then Lila in S2, then Prado. Like Alan said, Dexter is now so cute 'n cuddly that they want him to seem normal. Except he kills.
I think the show should be a creepy-ass, unnerving who/why done it each week, and enough with the lame subplots and even lamer supporting characters. I've never cared LESS about a group of supporting characters in a series. Nobody on this show besides Dexter makes me look forward to it every week. Although Miguel Prado was close. I thought Smits was a riot last year. But everyone else and their stories are just so weak and threadbare.
Worse, the show isn't even unnerving anymore. And I've always been miffed that TPTB never truly write for Dexter's ENJOYMENT of what he does. It's always written like a grim task, like using the bathroom -- a necessary thing for the character. But in the original books, you could see he had a true enjoyment for the torture and murder of his victim. (again, the series softens this fact by having him simply dispatch each person with a knife to the chest) Since this is Showtime and all, I think it needs to be reiterated that this guy is a true psycho, who enjoys causing pain and then murder. Part of that simple, frightening concept has been completely watered down by all involved. Tony Soprano stayed EXACTLY who he was his entire series, and so did Vic Mackey. And those final seasons set out to remind certain viewers of that. These guys were monsters who got off on what they did, and they continued to do what they did for the rush of it. Dexter should be no different, and it would be a more effective character study if we were asked to empathize with a guy who did these things. At this rate, by the time Dexter ends, he'll be exactly like he was in his dream at the end of Season 1 -- happy and with everyone cheering behind him. Only if things don't pick up soon, I won't make it to the finale 'cause I'll be watching something else.
--Ray
I highly doubt that Quinn is the vacation murderer...didn't we get a glimpse of him and his girlfriend in the Angel/Laguerta shootout? That being said I don't see Quinn lasting past this season. He's assumed Doakes' role as the generic tough-guy morally confused cop, which strikes me as the equivalent of the recurring Sopranos' hotheaded capo (Richie-Ralphie-Tony B).
@Belinda "And what's up with that tap dripping?"
Visual symbolism for Dexter's inability to 'turn off' the killer instinct.
@Dan
"Really, I don't get why this year things are suddenly disappointing you so much."
I think it has something to do with the common psychological compulsion to idealize the past at the expense of the present. Also the show has gotten more and more hyped every
year, which leads to ever higher expectations.
What about Anton being the one to take the shot?? He sees Deb/Lundy embrace and kiss... goes to shoot Lundy but being an untrained with a gun is a poor shot and hits Deb, then hits Lundy.
Great episode. Right up there with anything from S1 or S2.
No viewing malaise on my part. Found all parts of the show gripping.
If Lundy dies it'll probably be due to the fact he got shot twice and is much older than Deb was. Additionally, we see the location where Deb got shot but we fail to see Lundy's.
I like the show and have for all 3 seasons. The negative comments seem to be more nitpicking than anything worth arguing about.
Quinn or a familiar face being the vacation killer will be odd. Has their been hints to that?
It became obvious to me last night why the relationship between the detective and the chief is being explored - it will hurt the court case and a killer will be set free.
Well, to the guy who said Lundy's spidey sense was tingling, Trinity did act rather awkward around him. Dexter hides that.
Me, I actually really liked this episode, even though I am Bored to Death™ with anything involving Quinn, Angel, and/or Laguetta. Damn shame if Lundy is dead, but I for one wouldn't be complaining if Deb passes, but like others have said, with her being one of the principles, it seems unlikely.
Anton doesn't seem invested enough to commit a double homicide. If anything, he'd just skip town and find someone else soon enough.
And on a side note, personally, I avoid watching Showtime previews, as they give just too much away. I'd rather approach an episode completely fresh.
thought this was a gripping and tight episode...the side characters really only had a few minutes of screen time...and I'm willing to look past them to provide color and some breathing room for the main plots
Quinn literally had like 2 minutes of screen time in this episode, I don't understand what you guys are crying about.
My family at first thought it could have been Anton that shot Deb/Lundy... If you think about it, it makes sense.
Anton knows all about everything, the vacation murder included.
& what exactly was up with the beggining part with Trinity? With the man outside of the bar.?
I was surprised that the whole "Dexter gets caught knocking out the security lights" deal was shrugged off so quickly, almost like it was completely overlooked by Rita. It just seems out of Rita's character, considering how she's been acting towards Dex recently.
My first thought was that Anton was the shooter, but then felt that no one could care enough about Deb to get that excited.
I agree with the poster re: Dexter not taking pleasure in murder. Dex used to look positively orgasmic at the moment of the kill, which was appropriate--he loves and needs to do it. Now his killing seems more like a boring commitment he can't get out of.
Best line: Nobody's raping anybody here.
Maybe the reporter is the vacation murderer and leaked Lundy's name to take the focus off the VM investigations.
I actually fast forwarded every Angel/Laguarta scene. It's just not worth my time and uninteresting. I really liked them both last season when they are doing cop stuff. But this drivel - such a waste of time.
I think Lundy is a goner. If that face was ever a dead face.. it sure looked dead to me! The vacant stare. And I love Deb, I don't know why you're all hating on her. She's a kick!
I think Lundy's a goner and there will be drama around Anton and Deb with her having to turn to him for support during recovery yet explain the whole sordid details of 'really' loving Lundy. Blah, blah, blah (I love Deb, but I'm tired of her love life).
I don't think Anton did it (there's nothing in his character development to make us believe this and well, Deb's not THAT big of a deal) so my bet is on the Vacation Killer.
Who is not the reporter, and possibly but probably not Quinn. Hey how about Masuka, while we're guessing? Wasn't he supposed to be on 'vacation' this week (wink, wink).
With Lundy out of the picture it will put the focus back on Dexter and Trinity. And Dexter and the Vacation Killer. But more of Dexter getting his man (and woman - I loved that touch this week, too) and only mildly dealing with the family.
And Alan, say what you will about the show. Keep the blog and we keep talking. Thanks.
Like most viewers I like Lundy and would be disappointed to see him go, as it leaves Dex and Deb as the remaining characters I truly care about.
However. I have also found that loving Lundy has required me to turn a blind eye to his apparent failings as Agent Rockstar, as these would considerably discredit his character.
Meaning: any investigator looking at the "Bay Harbor Butcher" case would have overpowering lingering suspicions of Dexter's guilt, considering that Dexter fit the profile of the killer significantly better than Doakes.
Consider: it was known the BHB worked for Miami Metro, kept a boat in one of the few designated marinas with the algae on the rocks, was incredibly meticulous, and had the opportunity to commit the murders on or about the dates of victims' last known appearances. And beyond these specific qualities, Dexter being a white single male in his '30s should have pushed him up the short list. Further, Doakes proved himself to be impulsive and short-fused in front of Lundy, making him an unlikely candidate for meticulously plotted, cleanly handled ritualistic killings.
Now sometimes it does seem from Lundy's manner that he does carry such suspicions about Dexter--but ya know, I'd prefer some more definitive (though subtle) reveal that this is in fact the case. If we do not receive this sort of confirmation, I wouldn't stop liking Lundy...but it would just be nice to know he's not a complete dodo about the BHB.
& what exactly was up with the beggining part with Trinity? With the man outside of the bar.?
I think it's part of his pathology: Recreating the scenarios that have led to him becoming a killer. I imagine was he was once called all those names and beaten behind a bar. Now he has "justification" to go bludgeon his next victim. Like the scalding hot shower, the beating is one of his rituals. I hope we find out what his other rituals are and how they relate to the murders he commits (such as, was it his own mother who disappointed him--which they seem to be pointing to--or a woman he once loved who spurned him because she was married?).
I have a feeling Lundy has a file on Dex somewhere in his belongings, and if he is dead, I bet Deb gets ahold of it somehow (maybe he wills it to her, or she goes to clean out his hotel room and discovers it). As much as Lundy says he was happy to be back in Miami to see Deb, he was probably just as happy to follow up on any hunches he may have about Dexter. Total speculation on my part, of course.
dez, I like your notion of Lundy having a file on Dexter that gets into Deb's hands . . . perhaps this would dovetail nicely with her poking into her Dad's relationship with Laura Moser.
Any culmination of events where Dex and Deb must deal with the truth about Dexter is one I'd like to see . . . it would seem this would be the best way to eventually end the series.
My guess: the writers would engineer it so that Deb grasps the truth and then the viewer is left in suspense as to what she will do with that information. . . And before she can do anything, the choice is somehow taken away from her via outside forces or more likely by Dex's actions (as Lila relieved Dexter of having to deal with Doakes). But we can be left to think she would not have turned Dexter in.
Welllll we'll see in a season or two, huh? :)
(By "Dex's actions" I do not mean to imply I think he'd kill Deb to protect his secret. I just think that ultimately the writers will place Dexter's destiny in his own hands, and he'll either go on the run or put himself in a certain-death situation and be killed or otherwise determine his own fate as much as possible.)
I've recently read the first book in the Dexter series and it is true that Deb finds out about her brother. There is surprisingly little overlap in book events and show events, though, so I don't know that we'll ever see character Deb find out. I like to think that this Dark Passenger stuff is Dexter's battle alone. He's never seemed that thrilled with that part of his life--just accepting of it--and I really liked the 12-Step Program story arc of the second season.
Dexter admitting that he missed his family was a huge character development, I think. I don't know that he would do anything about the realization besides intellectualize it, but this is the first time we've seen him admit he needs companionship. Considering that it is probably his early childhood that turned him into a serial killer (I always got that from the show), and his desire to protect children, I feel like Dark Passenger could be kicked out of the car at some point.
Call me sentimental, but I'd enjoy watching a show about a serial killer who self-reforms. I still enjoy the character, cuddly or not.
Although I am done with Angel, but not La Guerta. I like her.
Welllll we'll see in a season or two, huh? :)
I hope so, Joe Don! That's one aspect of the books I think would be much better served by the series.
I don't know that I would still watch if Dexter self-reforms. He gets a conscience and then what? Does he kill himself to atone for his crimes (it's sort of in the Code--to eliminate the truly guilty)? Go on like he never did anything bad? Get all angsty and worried about being discovered because then Deb, Rita and the kids might stop loving him? Ick.
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