Bravo just bought Television Without Pity, putting the entire site under the NBC/GE/Universal/Sheinhardt Wig Company umbrella. Can an independent voice survive under that arrangement?
UPDATE: Doing a conference call shortly with the TWoP founders and Bravo, so we'll see what they have to say about separation of church and state. That said, the new money means that TWoP is going to start recapping more shows, including "The Wire," and any additional pub for "The Wire" is okay by me.
UPDATE #2: So, on the call, the founders said that Bravo having any control over editorial content "wasn't even on the table" and that everyone knew going in that you can't let TWoP start having pity. (There was a lot of talk about "the brand.") Also, the "Real Housewives of Orange County" message board flap discussed in the comments was said to be a coincidence of timing, and that they often shut down certain boards for various reasons. (Which I've witnessed.)
Tuesday, March 13, 2007
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66 comments:
Yikes........
So that explains why TWoP, under pressure, yanked the Real Housewives thread.
http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3151258&pid=7075510&st=0&#entry7075510
Holy hannah, this is going to get weird.
Time for some enterprising souls to to start independent versions? Probably past time, actually.
Gonna be on a conference call with the TWoP founders and the Bravo execs shortly, and I'm sure that will be the main topic of discussion.
I'm skeptical, but I hope they can keep what's made them unique, while expanding into other areas.
So, anyone know what was happening in that Real Housewives thread that got it yanked?
And does anyone know what happened to Aaron, who used to write the Sopranos and Six Feet Under recaps? (And whose bitter, hilarious "Mind of the Married Man" recaps were classics.) One day he just disappeared, and I'd love to know if he's got a blog or some other Internet outlet for his writing.
What worries me is if attorneys can get one show's thread to be yanked, why can't they go after other shows?
Also, with so many reality shows over the past seven years, I'm sure that there have been numerous instances of potentially libelous comments. So why pull this thread now?
Agree with Anon above - yikes! I love TWOP and hope that the writers are able to continue to be snarky, or else it won't really be television WITHOUT pity anymore...
TWoP is already unreadable and unfunny, in my opinion. This acquisition is no great loss for anyone.
I think there was some potentially libelous yacking in that Real Housewives thread, just like there was in the Dr. 90210 thread that also was yanked.
I'm guessing TWoP as we know it is dead.
As for Aaron, there's all sorts of scurrilous gossip on the intarwebs about why he left, but I don't know how much is true, if any.
I don't think it will be any different then any of the other times it’s been bought out. Haven't they been getting Yahoo backing for a while? In my opinion TWoP hasn't been worth reading for content since the days of Might Big TV.
The site has been taking over by squeeing fangirls on one hand and people who insist on watching shows that they haaaatttteee just so they can comment on how much they haaaaattte the show.
OTOH, Bravo owning them might put an end to the capricious banning of posters just because a mod happens to be in a bad mood that day. I'm sure Bravo wouldn't want to lose viewers because their employees were treating the public like crap.
I wonder if this also explains why Fametracker (also acquired, according to the PR) hasn't been updated since the day after the Oscars.
Having been a victim of the carpicious warning for no real reason and without venue for appeal, I can't say that I will be disappointed to see that change. Nonetheless, I have to disagree with those who crap on the content of TWoP. I think it really depends on the recapper, and sometimes the show. I still love Jacob and Joe R.'s BSG recaps and Miss Alli's TAR recaps (the whole God and the tub thing remains a favourite). I don't keep up with all of them, mostly because I have a job and need to do actual work occasionally.
I wish them well, after all, two of the big three are Canucks from TO and I can't help but feel a little bit of pride in that regard.
Of course there are a lot of squeeing fangirls and haaaaaaters in the message boards. That's what message boards -- even ones as generally well-policed as TWoP's -- are, aren't they? But as far as the main site goes, the quality of writing in the recaps is generally on the same excellent level it has been since the MBTV days. The Bravo acquisition makes me a little squeamish, but I'm also proud that these people I feel I know (after having read some of them for 7-8 years) have hit the big time.
I am happy for Tara, Sarah and the gang, whom I've been reading since the early MBTV days.
One dream: printable versions of the full recaps, and no more page-by-page scrolling.
I know in the past they've said that they make their money based on page views, so an option to see all the pages at once would cost them ad revenue. Not sure if that's still the case. Something to go ask Glark, I guess.
Response to what Caroline said -
The only site I know that did recaps like TWoP did was fandomtalk.com, and they've had to stop their recaps due to lack of funds. Unfortunately I don't know if anyone can stand up to the juggernaut that is TWoP.
Ursula
"Of course there are a lot of squeeing fangirls and haaaaaaters in the message boards. That's what message boards -- even ones as generally well-policed as TWoP's -- are, aren't they?"
The problem there is that they promote their message boards as places full of intellectual discussion, but if you try to get into a real discussion (by addressing other posters), you get dinged for "boards on boards" or some other such horsesh*t. It's like posting in a vacuum (a vacuum filled with panty-poofing morons, ha).
I've been reading since it was Dawson's Wrap. That makes me feel very old.
I just hope Bravo doesn't get control of web page design ... bravotv.com has to be one of the worst sites on the internet, aesthetically and navigationally speaking.
"OTOH, Bravo owning them might put an end to the capricious banning of posters just because a mod happens to be in a bad mood that day."
THANK you!
Let's hope this deal doesn't change the stupid nicknames for every single character on every single show, rendering the recaps all but unreadable.
TWoP gets far more press than is warranted. I don't know why TV Networks place such a huge weighted meaning on fansites like TWoP when it really is just a small fraction of very, very (read: fanatical) devoted fans that do not come close to representing the vast majority that do not find participation in online message boards meaningful. One just needs to look at Veronica Mars, Gimore Girls, BSG, Enterprise, and whatever else twop tried to rally around with campaigns and such and notice how it has NO impact on the popularity and general adoption of those shows.
The "without pity" portion of their name is the biggest joke around. They have the position of 'snark' and lobbing spitballs from the back row, but do not allow any other poster the same luxury if they have a different opinion. Nothing gets you banned faster than just a simple disagreement with the general consensus of the board. It really is a lesson in cult formation and mind washing to see how complicit the posters on that board become in relation to the moderator. "Miss Alli" is the biggest hypocrite of them all - willing to bash actors on a personal level but so thin skinned herself that she will ban people for insults only she perceives.
As you can probably tell, I USED to read their material and try to participate, but quickly found out how restrictive their mindset is over there. Their recaps aren't as funny as they think (most of it is just coming up with cutesy plays on words, nothing more). And the reason the boards seem populated with nothing but teenage girls is because that is the demographic most concerned with fitting in at all costs. Boys don't care about TV that much and mature people don't appreciate being censored like some child just for expressing a counter opinion (or just writing good enough to be threatening to the capper's job). I invite anyone to go their and read 100 random posts and see for themselves whether or not the feeling you get is forced attendance to some teeny girly slumber party of complicity and begging acceptance.
I really wish the general media, including Alan, would stop quoting twop as the 'go to ' reference for online television sites, unless they append that with 'for teenage girls'. It blows their importance way out of proportion and actually does a disservice to the industry that already seems to cater to that demographic too much already.
Is the TWoP fanbase representative of the audience at large? No, but neither am I and the readers of this blog, or most of the other TV sites where I hang. My favorite shows of all time include EZ Streets (dead in eight episodes), Arrested Development (limped along for parts of three seasons), The Wire (HBO charity case). If a show I like is popular, I consider that a fluke of nature.
I talk about TWoP a lot because I enjoy the site, either for the comedy (love Miss Alli's takedowns of various reality show contestants) or the analysis (Jacob usually points out five things I didn't notice in each Battlestar Galactica episode).
The idea of a site where you can be snarky about shows, actors and reality people but not have to deal with posters who want to attack other posters personally is refreshing. I don't participate in the forums much, but Miss Alli is the best recapper there, and the people who complain about her or TWOP's policy tend to the people who step over the line of attacking people instead of stating opinions. I've had no problem addressing other posters at the site; I'm just successful at not making it personal or stating that someone's opinion is invalid. I never realized considered, non-abusive posting (as happens in the Amazing Race forum) wasn't "real discussion."
I've only had one moment where I've gotten into moderation issues with TWOP--I was posting one of the Sam threads on the West Wing section, where I expressed the opinion (as Lowe was leaving the show) that Sam was not the entirety of the show, or even the center, and that Lowe was making a dumb career move. This did not make the Lowe-aholics happy, and I was accused of trolling.
Mods sided with me (though mine was the minority opinion in the thread)--and given Lowe's post-TWW career (at least until Brothers & Sisters, where he's more or less playing "Sam Seaborn" again), I think I was proven right.
Would be great if increased resources allow them to recap more, but why do I have a feeling the only extra recaps will be of NBC-family programs? Would love to see some Shield recaps. (By the way, Alan, any advance intel on that show's new season?)
I mainly go to TWoP for Jacob's BSG stuff, but it's a love-hate relationship. Like Alan, I find them full of insights - but also frustratingly opaque a lot of the time. Maybe I'm just dumb.
Glark said that the new shows being added are "The Wire" (woo-hoo!), "Men in Trees," "Brothers & Sisters" and "Drive." Not an NBC/GE/Scheinhardt show in the bunch.
I read some recaps on TWoP, but only really participate on the comments for ROME, since it's hard finding people otherwise who are watching it. The obsessive TAR fans can be v. useful, but otherwise, I don't find as much value-added on the boards.
heh.
i caught and old ep of 'penn & teller' on the tivo tonight. the subject was 'manners'. and how we can get carried away with this concept of 'etiquette'.
i understand the need for rules at twop, to control the great unwashed and all.
i was banned at twop. for my opinions? my rude behavior? no, for the fact i don't use the 'shift' key to capitalize.
nice.
best of wishes and good luck twop. i hope those corporate types reign in on you as you did with me.
heh. i know they will...
Well I read it back when it was the Mediarama 90210 wrapups. On a Lynx browser!
Yeah, I like looking over Twop boards for shows where I don't know anyone else in real life who watches them. Other than that, I really don't get the recaps I've attempted to read lately, they just have too many layers of in-jokes. Anyway, I agree with the sentiment that anything that raises awareness of The Wire is a very good thing. So yay, TWoP!
Lisa
The Wire recaps will only be good if they put an intelligent recapper on them. I hope it's Jacob or M. Giant, personally, since they're both funny and smart.
I'm pretty sure the thing about using proper caps is in TWoP's FAQ; if you can't be polite enough to follow the rules, you can't exactly fault them for booting you for your ill manners.
Adam, who are you on the ROME boards? I post a little there, too.
As a fan of "The Wire", I like the sound of this too.
But I thought TWoP only recapped current shows. The next season of The Wire won't air again until sometime late in 2008.
So... we're happy now, why?
Let's see if this marriage can make it for a year or more (unlike most...)
Then I'll get happy.
"if you can't be polite enough to follow the rules, you can't exactly fault them for booting you for your ill manners."
you are, of course, right dez.
but you see, i can't hit the shift keys when i am typing. my 'pinkies' being raised and all.
you know, manners!
What a bunch of bull, those two sellouts and their claim that their "editorial independence" won't be harmed in any way.
This from the two bints whose bright idea to shut down the forum for The Real Housewives of Orange County (a Bravo show, I must mention) came from intense pressure from the bimboes' cavalcade of big-shot high-priced attorneys. Not coincidentally, viewership for the show plummeted when viewers no longer had that forum to write about each episode. Ariano and Bunting are a couple of morons who run their company with a junior high mentality and a smug self-assuredness that bogus bullshit deals such as these only serve to incorrectly validate.
Sellouts, both of them. Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh, and undercover asian man, I am linking to your comment over on my blog. Beautifully stated, and believe me, there are far more TWOP detractors than there are fans these days.
Why do I get so angry about them? They aren't good enough to merit the level of attention that they get, and they're hypocrites. That's why.
Wow, there are a lot of bitter, bitter people posting here.
I read the 24 recaps (used to read the boards but now the "fangirl" quotient is a bit high for my tastes), read and loved the Survivor Cook Islands recaps and discussion, read the Deadwood recaps, and enjoyed the Arrested Development board. What goes on in the other areas of the site, I have no idea, but I have enjoyed the parts that I've read quite a bit.
"Wow, there are a lot of bitter, bitter people posting here."
not "bitter", ap.
we call that "snark!"
Gee they are going to cover perhaps the greatest TV show ever only for its last season? I guess it's better than nothing.
Alan, I agree that Arrested Development is the funniest show of all time, and that The Wire is the greatest drama of all time.
I would have been shocked if they didn't add "Drive" anyway, what with the Minear and the Fillion (which guarantee an active board community), but the other 3 seem like good adds--I was actually surprised they didn't pick up Brothers and Sisters earlier, but Berlanti's had a bad time on TWOP.
I think the mods on TWoP are fair (some more laissez-faire than others) and do a good job of curbing trolls who either wish to pick fights with other posters because of dissenting opinions or simply like to stir s**t up. The recappers themselves have varied in quality over the years. I've always admired Sobell for her CSI recaps (she does Prison Break now) and Omar for his hilarious takes on Smallville. And Deborah, when she wrote The West Wing recaps, often praised Sorkin's work but still gave him grief for sexism. I used to read Aaron quite a lot since he was often stuck with the HBO shows but I don't miss his recaps. They were too personal sometimes.
TWoP is almost worthy of a sociological essay about how anonymous and invisible people bond (or clash) over pop culture. I hope it doesn't change.
"Berlanti's had a bad time on TWOP."
I'm curious as to why you think that is. I always loved AB Chao's recaps of Everwood and thought that the general consensus of the forums were positive ones of the show.
I miss AB Chao's recaps but as long as Couch Baron and Jacob stay aboard so will I.
In response to the guy who was wondering why they would only cover The Wire for its last season, as a long-time reader, I'd be surprised if they didn't do recaps for the first four seasons. It might take them a couple years to cover everything, but I'd be surprised if they only covered Season 5.
Cheesesteak, they have a long-standing policy against recapping comedies, with "Sex and the City" (only a quasi-comedy to begin with) the lone exception. Jacob did an awesome "Office" recap as part of a charity promotion, though.
I agree with Anna Laperle’s take on the forum moderators. Frankly, I appreciate their dedication to civil discourse. My favorite of the forum rules is the ban on beginning a post with the nasty, dismissive “Um . . .” and “Sorry, but . . .” And maybe it’s my age (30s) and profession (copyeditor) talking, but as far as I’m concerned, insisting that posters use standard spelling and capitalization is a fine thing. If your intent is to express and exchange opinions, why put up a barrier to others understanding you? I guess there’s breaking rules for the sake of breaking rules, but anarchy on TV discussion boards seems pretty pointless.
For an interesting comparison, try taking a look at TWoP’s Deadwood forums (available in archived, read-only format) and then at HBO’s Deadwood boards. Both are, as you’d imagine, fabulously profane, but only one is good reading.
While Berlanti has his fair share of adorers on TWOP (myself among them)--he never generated much forum traffic outside of his Dawson's stint. "Jack and Bobby" got canned by TWOP after 4 episodes, and while "Everwood" had 3 of the 4 seasons recapped, it got canned at the start of season 4. It's the problem TWOP faces--it's hard to recap a show that's generally liked, but doesn't inspire freeze-framing, while easier to recap something where the characters behave like morons.
TWoP is almost worthy of a sociological essay about how anonymous and invisible people bond (or clash) over pop culture. I hope it doesn't change.
I think a (maybe former?) poster did do that.
I spend way too much time at TWoP, and I'm not at all worried about this deal. In fact, if they now have the resources to add more lesser-known but high-quality shows like they did with FARSCAPE, it can only be a good thing.
I am SO far from being a TWoP fan, but "more detractors than fans"? I kind of doubt it. TWoP says they get a million uniques a month. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that there aren't a million TWoP detractors out there. Maybe a few dozen, or even hundred... but equating noisy complaining on the Internet with some sort of majority view is the most typical delusion I see on TV boards on the Internet, and that's what this comment smacks of.
"As far as I’m concerned, insisting that posters use standard spelling and capitalization is a fine thing. If your intent is to express and exchange opinions, why put up a barrier to others understanding you?"
I agree with you, Kate -- it's just so much more readable when people obey the basic rules of grammar! Besides, no one is forced to join or post at a place like TWoP. If you want to post there, you have to play by their rules, even the dumb ones. If you think their rules are stupid, it's easy to go somewhere else where people don't care about that stuff. It's like going to a non-smoking restaurant filled with "No Smoking" signs and getting mad when they kick you out for lighting up. (Capricious banning is another issue -- as a non-TWoP poster, I can't speak to those complaints. I just like the Veronica Mars recaps.)
I've also heard tell of capricious board moderators at TWoP. But, having said that, I've been moderating the boards at my blog for almost three years now. And I have the battle scars to prove it. It's really not easy to keep things on track.
I could talk about that whole 'what it's like to moderate message boards' issue all day long --there are a ton of things that come to mind when I think about commenters, on my site anyway. At the Trib, I have to read and approve every comment before it goes up. I don't pretend to be an expert in how to lead and inspire civil discourse on the web, but I have to say, I've ended up being in favor of a strong board-moderator presence, on my site anyway. People will quickly get out of hand on my site if they think they can just start opening flaming each other or ripping actors in completely gross ways or go way, way off topic. So lately I've just been closing down comments on certain items if people aren't listening to my warnings or paying attention to the rules. Our rules are, no profanity, commercial messages and no "irrelevancies and unfair attacks."
I guess I'm the one who has to decide what's an unfair attack. I have no idea if I'm doing an ideal job of it. I let 99 percent of comments go up. But there are times when I'm just like, 'No, that's really cruel, we're not going there.'
I've also started banning people. It's rare, and I don't like having to do it, but some people just make the discussion impossible to enjoy, or seem to have a real affinity for abusive language (often directed at me, which adds to the fun). I do let most comments go up, but when someone has received repeated warnings to chill out or be more civil, and they don't listen, they're done. Life is too short. I want my site to be a place that is, if not fun to read, at least not a painful festival of abusive meanness or irrelevant whatever.
My thing is, I guess in a certain way, I think of my site as "my house," and my mentality is, even if you are not using official swear words, you know, I'm the one who has to wade through these comments. I don't want to read post after post of ugliness. That's why I shut down a board on that Cameron Lost Tombs show. Fine, discuss the merits or lack of merits to the show, but it became "Christians are dumb" vs "God is great." I don't have time for that. End of story.
So anyway, I'm rambling here, but I guess I'm saying... don't blame TWoP for discussions sometimes descending into squeeing and groupthink. That happens so much -- it's the nature of the beast, imho. Some discussions on my site end up being "Such-and-so show is stupid," "No it's not," "Is too," etc. There was a great discussion recently on a recent Battlestar thread -- but I had to ban one guy who was being annoying. And several other folks tried to post spoilers -- after I told them no spoilers were allowed.
So anyway, that's my 2 cents. Probably more like 4 cents. But the bottom line is, online message boards are not always the Algonquin round table. This site excepted, of course.
Yikes. Sorry that was so long.
I've never looked at TVW/OP (That's right! I'm totally not using their board-approved style on their acronym! I'm a rebel!) but after seeing all the hubbub here, and after a few minutes (because I had to click back and forth, constantly) on their FAQ page(s), I can conclusively say that I'll never, ever go there again.
T-WOP's thin-skinn'd rulez seem like a totally awsum way to exclude folks from participating!!! "We apologize -- no, actually, we don't -- but our software isn't able to appropriately map the sentence structure of your last comment. Therefore, any ideas you must have had could not have been worth sharing."
First they came for those who don't capitalize the first words in their sentences...
Re: Lindy's "It's like going to a non-smoking restaurant filled with "No Smoking" signs and getting mad when they kick you out for lighting up."
Sounds a little more like getting thown out for using the wrong fork.
thown=thrown. but i totally meant to do that. Um.
"TWoP says they get a million uniques a month."
They also say they have more posters than they do. That's because they count banned posters, even though those people obviously can't be posting at the site anymore. I wouldn't trust their numbers unless they showed me the hard evidence.
"They also say they have more posters than they do. That's because they count banned posters, even though those people obviously can't be posting at the site anymore."
Myth. Those numbers don't mean anything except to bitter bannees and conspiracy theorists like yourself.
Okay, folks. We've had more than a full day of this and the conversation has wandered pretty far afield of the implications of the Bravo deal and into more general venting about how the TWoP boards are run. So I'm going to ask everybody to relax and either get more specifically on-topic or move on to discussing this someplace else.
For those who characterize people with negative experiences at twop as 'bitter' or intentional troublemakers, and that the number is only in the few dozens, I think some simple logic will dispel that notion. The number of similar complaints ( not just here, but easily found by google [google "miss alli survivor sucks thread" for just one example, a thread filled with over 100 pages]) of draconian censorship by their moderators is very large. It is highly unlikely that so many would express the same opinion just out of bitterness - surely there must be some validity to it if it brings such large and vocal agreement.
I don't mind enforcement of proper grammar and capitalization, or kicking out obviously flamers and trolls. But the majority of the complaints is that they go too far in their enforcement of this concept, and even abusing it to 'shape' the consensus of the board into groupthink. Who moderates the moderators? The result is that only complicit personalities stick around, and while their rules do keep out lazy or bitter posters, it also tends to keep out the most thoughtful and intelligent ones as well who do not think in a pack-mentality way, and keeps out real avenues of discussion other than the 'agreed upon' stances.
Also, if one gives merely a luke-warm response to certain cappers there, you can be sure that you will be warned in the future for some perceived infraction as retribution. And what is more harmful to a board, a few spelling mistakes or the 100th similar "squeeeeee"-ing post about Veronica and Logan that is harmless but also completely content-free? The new-concept-to-pages-read ratio for that site is atrocious, a direct result of outcasting opinions that do not match the group.
I was warned for suggesting that "Joan of Arcadia" was going down-hill because it was silly and insulting that God would concern himself about helping Joan and that stoner-boy on the show hook up, and that reducing God's roll to matchmaker and instead concentrating on teenage love-triangles was completely destroying the concept of the show. The backlash I received was incredible, being accuse of being a troll, godless, a hater, etc. And finally, a week later I might add, I found myself 60% warned even though I did not respond back to the criticism at all, and found it rather amusing. At no point did I address anyone personally, either. So to say that all who are complaining about unfair treatment are just bitter people is hard to believe given the number of complaints, the similar reasons, and personal experience.
OK, I'm done. I'll just trust capitalism to eventually determine the fate of twop.
Alan: "So I'm going to ask everybody to relax and either get more specifically on-topic or move on to discussing this someplace else."
Sorry Alan, I was typing mine as you were typing yours. As I said, I'm done on the topic, if I read your post first I would have not posted my last post.
Gee they are going to cover perhaps the greatest TV show ever only for its last season? I guess it's better than nothing.
From what i understand is that they will be recaping every episode of the wire, starting with episode 1-season1, should be interesting
I hope the additional Bravo money will solve the key flaw I see in TWoP: money and staffing shortages lead to capricious mod behavior.
For example, the moderator for the Lost boards retired. Since then moderation has been done by various people, many of whom seem to have little time or patience for the task. Wing reacted to a problem involving two posts on on one of the most popular Lost threads by shutting down the entire thing.
In other incidents of mod overreaction I've heard about, it's often someone who is clearly stretched thin. I appreciate the stress issue, but after experiencing the wrath of an overworked mod you find yourself wishing for a bit more professional detachment. I hope the new revenue will provide that.
The announcement on the site said they want to hire more moderators, and they're always saying they get sent more resumes than they have time to look at, so I also hope the Bravo money will allow them to hire some fresh blood.
But more than that, I hope it'll allow them to pay their recappers a decent wage, because they don't (or didn't - things may have changed in the last couple of years, but I doubt it). The writers are paid a pittance to recap and nothing to moderate; if you think the squeeing fangirls are annoying, just imagine having to read all of it and getting, yes, decent exposure to your writing, but also headaches, hate mail and no money for the privilege.
Despite the ethical conundrum involved (and is Bravo owning TWoP really any more of a problem in those terms than any other giant corporation owning media outlets?), TWoP may have better luck attracting good writers and/or moderators if this deal allows them to pay for quality.
Man, I would LOVE it if M. Giant took on The Wire - especially since Rome is almost over. I would also love to see Jessica take on Men In Trees.
I don't hang in the forums much, but I love some of the recappers.
I'm not a fan of TWoP (or the whole concept of "snark"), but I think the hope of getting better recappers and mods because of better pay is already being exposed as unlikely. There's already a flap about the pay structure that Bravo is trying to lock the recappers into. I don't care one way or the other. Bravo has gone from being a quality network to being a network of cookie-cutter crap. As such, it's marriage with TWoP is a match made in heaven.
Hey anony, there are pleanty of independant snark sites to fill your needs.
Start with TVgasm or FlipitTypes
Weird how few good evil recaps there are around these days, especially since Bravo keeps pumpin' out such caca for us to trash.
Hmmmm. I was once interviewed by a Philly newspaper about the 90210 Weekly Wrapup, and I said something along the lines of the distinction between those who claim to be "snarky" and those who advocate for a particular show is a minor one; but furthermore that the growing complicity between the two makes for a drab, boring, excercise in the treadmill that is the mediated spectacle today....how weird. How sad.
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