Spoilers for the "Lost" season finale coming up just as soon as I sign for a Fruit Roll-Up..."They come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same." -Man #2In the days leading up to the airing of "The Incident," Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse have been trying to manage fan expectations. On the latest installment of their always-hilarious podcast(*), they even compared the ending to the final shot of season one's "Exodus," when the camera zoomed down the broken ladder of the hatch and we realized the show had spent months building up expectations for something they had no intention of showing us until the next season.
"It only ends once. Anything that happens before that, it's just progress." -Jacob
"We traveled back 30 years in time, and you're still trying to find ways to shoot each other." -Rose
"What's done is done." -Sawyer
"It doesn't have to be that way." -Jack
(*) Seriously, in some ways, I think those two are wasted on a sci-fi drama like "Lost." Just listen to their riff about how, in retrospect, they should have conceived of Jacob as a 60-foot-tall man made entirely of flame, who would inspire Locke to take one look at him and demand that someone bring him a bucket, and you know that they really should be working as a comedy team at nightclubs in the Catskills. (Are there still nightclubs in the Catskills?)
And I can see why they might have felt that way, and not just because "The Incident" featured several shots that were identical to that closing image of "Exodus," as the drill shaft at the Swan site looks to be the exact place where the ladder will sit 30 years later. After all of this debate about whether the past can be changed or is set in stone, all the talk of Jughead and The Incident -- and whether Jack and company were going to cause it or prevent it -- for them to end the season on a flash of white light, with no sign of what Jughead's explosion accomplished, feels, structurally, very much like the end of season one: a lot of teasing for an answer that's going to wait for months (and many more months than between seasons one and two, at that).
And you know what? I. Do. Not. Care.
Because that? That was so exciting, so mythology-intensive, so loaded with great performances and great character notes, so all-around kick-ass, that I feel more than satisfied.
And, in a way that I didn't think was possible at the end of season one, or for pretty much all of seasons two and three, I trust these guys now. Yes, ending "Exodus" that way was a tactical error given all the build-up (in retrospect, the very least they should have done was zoomed down to show a shadowy figure in a Dharma jumpsuit holding an assault rifle), but the rest of "Exodus" was wonderful, and the eventual payoff with Desmond was worth it in the end. Whatever missteps the show has made, some caused by external forces, some not, it's been so consistently assured and entertaining for these past two seasons that I feel confident Cuselof really do know what they're doing here -- that, whether the grand plan was really sketched out from the beginning, or made up at a later date, it's mostly going to work out as it should in the final season, and if I have to show a little patience to find out exactly what happened when Juliet made Jughead's core go kablooey, well... I think I can handle that now. Hell, they even had a plan all along with Rose and Bernard, leading to one of the best, most moving scenes of the finale.Now, I have one significant complaint about "The Incident," and I want to get it out of the way fast so we can get to analyzing all that we learned: the minute Jack admitted to Sawyer that he was going forward with this insane plan because of Kate -- "I had her. I had her, and I lost her." -- I had to really, really resist the urge to flick some nitroglycerin pellets at the TV screen.
And it's not that I necessarily think it was out of character for Jack to do this. He's just that much of a stubborn, tunnel-visioned imbecile. It's that I had hoped that by now he had somehow grown out of it -- that his time on the mainland, and the realization that they needed to go back, really had cured him of some of his more reckless, headstrong ways, and his weird fixation on Kate was part of that. I was relieved when it turned out that Kate was going back to the island for selfless, non-Jack-related reasons, and hoped that maybe we were done with that half of the quadrangle, but alas... nope.
If Kate were a more interesting character, and/or if Matthew Fox and Evangeline Lily had an iota of the chemistry that Lily has with Josh Holloway (or, for that matter, that Holloway has with Elizabeth Mitchell), maybe I could buy into the idea that Jack would be willing to explode a hydrogen bomb to potentially recreate their love. But she's not, and they don't, and so it just made a good chunk of the 1977 portion of the second hour seem much sillier than it should have. If Jack were being driven by his messiah complex -- if giving him and Kate another shot was just one on an incredibly long list of things he could fix if Faraday's theory was correct (most of the other items being all the Oceanic survivors who died on his watch) -- I could have gone with it. But to turn the whole thing into the most explosive, dangerous chapter of the quadrangle story was a bad idea.
And it irked me that Juliet -- who's always been much more rational, and more empathetic, than Jack -- would flip-flop and decide to go along with this lunatic plan because she got her own heart broken due to an ill-timed glance at Sawyer glancing at Kate just as Bernard was giving an eloquent speech about the importance of being with the one you love until the end. They redeemed that part towards the end just because Mitchell and Holloway were so great and so raw as Sawyer tried to keep Juliet from being sucked down the pit, only for Juliet to let go to save the man she realized did love her as much as she wanted him to. But for a while there, I was growing to dislike Juliet almost as much as I usually hate Jack. Okay, now that out of the way, where to begin? May as well begin at the beginning, in which we meet... Jacob, and his counterpart to be named later. These two have been on the island even longer than Richard (who I'm guessing was on the Black Rock, which I'm guessing was the boat Jacob eyed off the shore), locked in some kind of unbreakable cycle of violence, and one with specific rules that aren't supposed to be broken. (In that way, it sounds a lot like the conflict between Ben and Widmore.) They bring different people to the island as pawns in whatever this game is, and no matter who the pawns are and how they try to beat the board, it all ends up in disaster, only to begin again...
... until, that is, Man #2 appears to have found that loophole he's been talking about forever, and has somehow turned himself into a perfect copy of John Locke, at the same time that the real Locke's corpse remains very dead, and in the box that Ilana and Bram have been toting from Alcatraz to the main island. And however that allows him to violate the rules of the game, it's now allowed him to talk Ben into repeatedly stabbing Jacob in his home at the base of the four-toed foot. 
(And let's pause a moment to reflect on the life and death of John Locke, one of the series' most important and compelling characters. It looks like dead really is dead, and while Cuselof have, like Man #2, come up with a workaround that allows them to keep the great Terry O'Quinn employed, I do feel sad that he apparently won't get to play Locke anymore, and that the serene, fulfilled Locke of recent episodes was an impostor. He really did die the pathetic, miserable death that Ben gave him. Dammit.) 
It was interesting to watch Jacob's past interactions with our surviving Oceanic characters, and to see exactly what he did and said to nudge them along the path that would take them to his island. He gives young James Ford the pen to keep writing the letter to Anthony Cooper, keeps Sayid from being run over by the same driver who kills Nadia, assures Locke that everything will be okay after Cooper throws him out the window, asks Jin and Sun to remember their love and try to stay together (which will lead Sun to get on the plane in Sydney) and explicitly asks Hurley to go back to the island (with the still-unexplained guitar case) after Ben's lawyers get him out of prison. But I have to admit to being puzzled about the cause-and-effect with Kate and Jack. I suppose he keeps Kate out of trouble with the law at a young age, which could put her in a position to go fugitive later on, but all he does with Jack is to put Jack's recent surgical misadventure into a vending machine metaphor (noting that the stuck Apollo bar "just needed a push," like Jack needed from Christian). I'm open to interpretations on either or both of these.
Now, we don't know what Jacob's game is truly about, nor what happens when Jughead goes off, but I suppose now is a good time to do a status check on our remaining players:
Juliet: Trapped under debris at the bottom of what will one day be The Swan, almost certainly dead unless Faraday was right about the explosion changing the timeline.
Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Miles, Hurley, Jin and Sayid: At Ground Zero for Jughead's explosion (along with Radzinsky and Pierre Chang, who suffers the injury that will presumably lead to the amputation of his arm), with Sayid bleeding to death after being gutshot by Roger Linus.
Rose, Bernard, and Vincent: Laying low, living off the land and what they can scrounge from Dharma, enjoying retirement and generally being awesome. John Locke: Dead, and/or cloned, and/or resurrected, and/or possessed by Man #2.
Ben: Committing another act of patricide, trying to stab to death a father figure who had so little apparent use for him that he never intentionally showed his face to Ben until now.
Sun, Lapidus, Alpert, Ilana, Bram and the Others: Hanging outside the statue, gawking at Locke's corpse.
Claire and Christian: Missing in action, and possibly not as connected to Jacob as we thought. (The way Ilana says "someone else has been using" the cabin implies a trespasser of some kind.)
Desmond, Penny, and baby Charlie: Still in Los Angeles, but presumably playing a major role in the final season, with or without Eloise Hawking.
Nicki and Paolo: Still dead, thank God.
There was so much going on in this finale, and I'm so eager to get this done so you can start talking and I can go to bed, that I'm going to go straight to the bullet points:
• I'm both too tired and too ignorant on the subjects of Egyptian mythology, the Spanish language and the works of Flannery O'Connor, so I leave it to you to analyze what the statue's face means (because that sure as heck wasn't Anubis), what Richard (aka Ricardos) says to Ilana, and whether there's any deeper meaning to Jacob reading "Everything That Rises Must Converge" as he waits for Cooper to throw Locke out the window.
• Jeff Fahey hasn't had a whole lot to do this season, but he's always wonderful, as exemplified here by his delivery of "Terrific" after Lapidus got a look at Locke's body.
• Man #2 was played by Titus Welliver, who's one of a legion of "Deadwood" alums to appear on "Lost" (also including Kim Dickens, Robin Weigert, William Sanderson and Paula Malcomson). Frankly, I'm going to be disappointed if the ubiquitous Garrett Dillahunt doesn't manage to put in an appearance before the end.
• Jacob, meanwhile, was played by Mark Pellegrino, whom you might know as Rita's sleazy ex-husband Paul on "Dexter," or as the guy in "The Big Lebowski" who peed on The Dude's rug -- which is a shame, as it really tied the room together.
• Kudos to the casting people for finding the actress who played young Kate. You didn't even need to see the kid playing the young MacKenzie Astin holding the toy airplane to realize who we were looking at.
• Though J.J. Abrams really hasn't had anything to do with the show since season one, Lindelof and Cuse still seem fond of the Todd Mulcahy scene from "Felicity," as Nadia became at least the third "Lost" character (after Michael and Juliet's ex-husband) to be abruptly hit by a car or bus.
• The Jack/Christian flashback, by the way, is the story he tells Kate in the pilot when she's stitching him up (a scene that they referenced themselves later in this episode).
• And in other continuity touches, Sun got to admire Aaron's cradle (which has held up remarkably well) and find Charlie's old Driveshaft ring.
• If Sayid's time on this earth isn't long, at least Naveen Andrews got to have some stellar moments in the finale, from the look of horror on Sayid's face as he watched Nadia die to the resignation, and even welcoming of death, as he bled out against the magic bus. • I have a feeling we've also seen the last of Juliet. Why else would Cuselof have bothered to give her a flashback -- the only one in the episode to not feature a visit from Jacob -- if they weren't trying to give her some closure before writing her out?
• While this season closed off most of the temporal loops, we still need to see the other half of the scene where Sawyer and company were being shot at on the outrigger, and to find out why the beach looked so much worse than it did when Locke brought his group there in this episode.
• I like that Miles ordered Chang to get as far away as he could, just as hours earlier (from Chang's perspective) or decades earlier (from Miles'), Chang did the same for him and his mom.
For the last time this season -- and with a long wait until the final 17 episodes of this great series -- what did everybody else think?
259 comments:
1 – 200 of 259 Newer› Newest»Craziness! I can't believe I have to wait so long for the next season.
I actually guessed that Locke’s body was in the box after seeing Lapidas’ reaction, for what it’s worth (nothing, but I’m proud of myself). I agree that Jack and Juliet's reasoning was the weakest parts of a great episode.
One interesting was that it was actually evil?-John who told good-John that he had to bring everyone back to the island and die, by having Richard tell that to good-John in last week’s episode when he was flashing through time. But Jacob also wanted them to come back, as seen in his conversation with Hurley.
A question: Why did Richard tell Sun that he saw Jin et al. die when he in fact didn’t (unless that is yet to come, but I wouldn’t count on it)?
Btw, I thought it was interesting to see Mark Pellegrino as Jacob. He was so goofy and campy in Dexter but any hint of this was unrecognizable (thus it was hard to pinpoint where we all knew him from).
Also, there was some irony in the fact that he was quasi-70's-ish in Dexter but that we didn't get to see him at all in LOST's version of the 70's.
I think the failsafe that Desmond turned at the end of Season 2 set off another hydrogen bomb, because Dharma was following Jack's example in how to stop an Incident. If that's the case, maybe everyone near the explosion now has the same abilities that Desmond has. If so, maybe it was Jacob's plan all along to create an army of "variables".
did Jacob save Sayid from sharing Nadia's fate? Or did he see to it that Nadia died so that Sayid would go about the path that would lead him back to the Island?
Nadia only stopped and turned suddenly because Sayid was behind her. If they'd kept walking together, I think they both make it across the street fine.
"I'm both too tired and too ignorant on the subjects of Egyptian mythology, the Spanish language and the works of Flannery O'Connor, so I leave it to you to analyze what the statue's face means (because that sure as heck wasn't Anubis), what Richard (aka Ricardos) says to Ilana"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
Ille qui nos omnes servabit = He who will protect (or save) us all.
I'd also gamble that the Juliet flashback was to explain her motivations (re: love) in the present day scene rather than as any sort of official sendoff. I don't see how she could be any more dead than, say, those positioned further away from but only slightly above a NUCLEAR BOMB, but we'll see! (I'm hoping for a Desmond-esque plotline for her. The nuke with the electromagnet overload and then the white flash reminded me of Desmond and the failsafe during a similar overload in season two.)
Man, I wish that we Atlantic Canadians had had a three hour buffer like last time - it gave me time to write something. Instead, my review (which you can read here if you so desire) ended up with 5000 words in two hours, and I still didn't effectively get a chance to sift through everything I wanted to. I don't think it's an issue of length or format, but time: there just isn't enough of it for it to all sink in.
I think my one major issue with the finale was Juliet's "death" having so little to do with the pureness of her character: what was always so charming about Juliet was that she wasn't there based on fate, but had been trying to help her sister, and trying to save children, and got swept up in all of this. She didn't leave behind a life of crime or drug abuse or divorce, but someone who loved her. That she dies, or presumably dies, without achieving that goal, and because of her allegiance to these people, just doesn't sit right with me.
And as for losing Terry O'Quinn playing Locke, as long as it means Michael Emerson fitting into the Locke role a little bit on the "good" side of things I think it might be worth it.
Great finale, looking forward to seeing how the discussion is developing in the days ahead.
Woooooo!
I am so glad that Locke is truly dead. (At least I am going to assume he is.) I never forgave him for what he did in the Season 3 finale - kill Naomi.
So I wonder who that was talking with Jacob as the Black Rock arrived, who later disguised himself as Locke.
Notice that he was dressed in black and Jacob in white? Were they Order and Chaos? I was reminded of the Black and White Guardians of Time from the Tom Baker era 'Doctor Who', which is kind of fitting for this series.
Even if it means that she's gone for good, I'm glad that Juliet got to have the final scene. If she doesn't come back, what a way to go out. When they showed her mini-flashback and no Jacob showed up, I had a feeling something was off. But I left myself open to the possibility that it was because she wasn't on 815 like the others. (But then again, neither was Illana, and she got a visit from Jacob.)
Well, the long hue and cry of this season was answered - where was Bernard, Rose, and Vincent? Nice to see they cast an older dog for Vincent.
I really thought we'd see Charlie or Libby in the finale. Having just seen Cynthia Watros in an episode of 'In Plain Sight', I thought maybe she'd be free to do this. I want me some actual ghosts! And when Sun turned the cradle upright, I thought we'd be treated to a surprise appearance by Claire, despite reports that she won't be back until next season.
That would at least have given Sun something of interest to do. She seemed to be in the finale just to ask exposition questions.
Recognized that building behind Jacob when he was sitting on the bench. So it was just a matter of waiting for the crash from above.
All in all, my favorite moment was when Sawyer kicked Jack in his bad twins......
After seeing Jacob's rival, I now wonder if that "person" in the cabin in past episodes was even Jacob. Is it possible that the new black-shirt guy was the one who said "Help me" to Locke, and that he was a captive in the cabin, held there by the ring of ash?
Looked to me like, as well as reassuring Locke, Jacob brought him back to life after his fall.
Outstanding episode - I laughed, I cried, I gasped. Cuse and Lindelof have really mastered the telling of this story now haven't they?
Did anyone else laugh at the sudden reappearance of Rose/Bernard/Vincent? So many people have made comments about the their mysterious disappearance - it almost seemed like this scene was thrown in as an answer to these comments. The scene really didn't seem to advance the plot in any way. I thought it was quite funny and was probably my favorite part of the episode.
"and one with specific rules that aren't supposed to be broken. (In that way, it sounds a lot like the conflict between Ben and Widmore.)"
So can we assume that Ben was acting for Jacob and Widmore for the other dude? And therefore the rules apply to them as well?
I am disappointed that someone beat me to the Latin translation. Someday all of those classes will come in handy. Although, I would like to point out that the verb could also be "to watch", so maybe it is "he who watches over us all."
Intense episode, gonna keep it short. My guess is that Charlie's guitar is in the guitar case.
(Reasoning- When Jacob says its not his, he leaves it with Hurley cause he is Charlies best friend.)
God only knows what it will mean next season but I bet it will be used.
It was almost too much to process with just one viewing. Kudos to you for pulling this together.
I know this is reaching into left field, but was anyone besides me reminded of Randall Flagg in The Stand as Jacob made his rounds of the 815s?
If nothing else about the show had satisfied me--and much of it did--I could have gladly taken my rest just on getting to watch Jack smacked around.
I think the showrunners have to be doing that at least in part as a gift to those of us who have been feeling violent toward him for so many seasons already.
I said this over at Throwing Things, but when you look at everything that happened, not-Locke (who I'm calling Esau) manipulated Ben in a very similar way that Ben did to the real Locke several times.
I'm provisionally disappointed with the ending, because if it's just "Hey they're back in the present!", you could have showed us that. OTOH, the climax of the Jacob half of the story is enough of a whammy to keep me satisfied.
Jacob was touching people -- especially the meetings back before 815. He tweaked Kate's nose, patted Locke's shoulder, and wiggled his fingers against Jack's as he handed off the candy bar.
Random thoughts of randomness...
Aaaaanyone else reminded of the "Krazy Kripples" episode of SOUTH PARK when Rose and Bernard were opting out of the action?
Poor Juliet. It should have been Kate. Well, odds are even she gets to fight aliens on ABC next season...
So Locke is Titus Welliver?
Or is Titus Welliver the monster, 'cause it's all black and cloudy and wanted Jacob dead?
It'd be amusing if next season starts with everyone in their lives, having never met...
Jack is a dick.
For hundreds if not thousands of years, Jacob has had that close-cropped haircut? Is he that good at cutting his own hair? Did they have bleach at the time of the Black Rock, or is he mystically blond?
Is the Island nothing but an eternal cycle of dudes fighting other dudes over vague philosophical stuff? Is that not the nature of mankind? Dudes fighting dudes?
Neutred! Ben is quite fun.
Will we ever find out Desmond's role in this, or will Henry Ian Cuisick's sexual harrassment suit and Sonya Walger's role on FLASH FORWARD mean Penny and Des will sail off into the sunset?
Are any of the original characters going to be alive at the end of this dang show?
Will we at least get a throwaway line where Hurly goes, "Oh, I was just talking to Libby. Turns out we were in the same nuthouse. Weird."
This show. Oy.
See you next year.
My theory is that Titus Welliver is a physical embodiment of Smokey (or at least in league with Smokey in some way). Smokey's ordering of Ben to obey Locke played a crucial role in Jacob's death, so I gotta think that was all part of Welliver's plan
"Notice that he was dressed in black and Jacob in white? Were they Order and Chaos? I was reminded of the Black and White Guardians of Time from the Tom Baker era 'Doctor Who', which is kind of fitting for this series."
Remember Season 1 where Locke is teaching WAAAAAALT! how to play backgammon? He really stresses how the game is played with two sides, one black and one white. Foreshadowing.
Two things I interpreted differently, Alan -- and may obviously be wrong on:
1. I thought that Jacob actually REVIVED Locke after his fall in the flashback. And I therefore assumed that what Jacob did for Jack was to save the patient he almost killed and thus keep Jack on his path.
2. I just assumed that the Not Jacob Dude from the beginning was somehow able to appear as any dead body on the Island. Thus, he could appear as Locke once Locke's body was returned to the Island. And presumably he had been appearing as Christian and Claire and such earlier (both on the Island and to Hurley). Or something.
Stop me if I sound crazy, but did the whole Man #2 vs. Jacob conflict remind anyone of a wayyy old Ghostbusters cartoon episode where the guys end up on some island where there are two mystical forces waging an eternal battle of good vs. evil for eternity? And they somehow possess one of the Ghostbusters and such? This is all coming from a half-baked memory of when I was a kid, but the minute I saw Jacob in white and Man # 2 in black, it all seemed to fit.
Intentional homage? Or am I just remembering things incorrectly/really crazy?
So I can't take credit for these theories as I read them on another site while I awaited the reviews of the best but here (http://tinyurl.com/qkxetn) people have got some pretty interesting ideas regarding the island as the Garden of Eden, Jacob and man #2 as Jacob and Esau (which I saw someone else called him here as well), and the idea that if man #2 can inhabit Locke's body, maybe he was some version of all the people Hurley has been seeing throughout the episodes (although that would seem contradictory as Jacob told Hurley that he wasn't crazy). But for fun theories check out the comments over there.
One other thing I noticed. So if the Island (the smoke monster/Alex, ben's daughter) told Ben to follow this fake Locke blindly, was the island fooled by man#2? Or was the island ready for a change in power and wanted him to follow the plans that the Island told man#2 (Locke) to follow out? Hope that made sense.
Fantastic episode. Really compelling and great story telling. While, like you Alan, I'm not a huge fan of the quadrangle romance that's there, this finale proved why Lost draws so many viewers. There was a great, unparalleled even, balance between character development and mythology that keeps us crazed fans going. I've grown to really like Juliet this season and I'm really going to miss her next year, especially when her and Holloway were so great together. Great review as usual! Stayed up just to read it, along with many others clearly! Can't wait for more in 2010!
So... by the end of the episode I was wondering where Titus Welliver was - I didn't think they'd bring in an actor who we'd recognize just for one scene, never to be seen again, and then I remembered Fisher Stevens on the freighter.
He and Jacob couldn't kill each other so they get pawns to play their games? How old are these guys anyway? And why would ancient Egyptians have been all the way out in the Pacific?
One part of me wants to say that Jack's bomb was the Incident that he was trying to prevent, as we've seen the future of the island (in 2004 and 2007) and they're still around. But another part of me is thinking that Lindelof and Cuse KNOW we think that and are trying to pull a double-reverse logic bomb and maybe something will change. But then maybe they think that we're going to think that and it's really a triple reverse....
I was also completely disappointed and in fact enraged that the answer for the bomb detonation went back to the ridiculous triangle.
Dumb, dumb, dumb!! Infuriating.
So did Damon or Carlton have a love triangle they couldn't solve? Because there is no other explanation for this drivel.
The first half of the finale was so much better than the second. That's not the way it should be.
Going to pat myself on the back quickly for for predicting that Locke was not Locke, but actually the monster. All I was missing was this Jacob's enemy character (I really like the nickname Esau, Devin, so I'm going to roll with that one). Things really start to click plot wise if this dude is the Monster since he can't kill Jacob directly; as a result, he not only takes over the body of Locke but manifests himself as Alex so that Ben is even further compelled to follow Locke/his own instructions. It also explains why "Jacob's" cabin was being used by someone else--we know it was Christian/the Monster, and he has Claire hostage for some strange reason to be revealed later.
Because of the whole Claire situation, and the fact Sun is outside with the whole gang of Others waiting for Esau and Ben to come out of the foot, it's probably save to assume that the Incident was always supposed to happen and didn't reset the time line in anyway. First, it would be a waste of 5 years of set up. Secondly, the radiation from the explosion would explain the hazmat suits when Kelvin/Desmond/Radzinsky use when they leave the Swan, why women can't give birth on the island (the radiation) and why there was all that concrete down there (ground zero of the explosion). So there is a real cause and effect to the H Bomb going off in our existing timeline.
Back to the Future 2007 with Kate, Jack and company next season?
I question the degree to which New Locke and Smokey are in cahoots. New Locke seemed surprised when Ben told him that Smokey-Alex had instructed Ben to follow Locke.
I want many more scenes of Jacob and Titus' character just sitting around eating fish on a beach. Was the writing on the fabric Jacob had made some kinda language someone here could translate, or was it just designy stuff?
great episode, but i think it's major fault was being only two hours. BSG spoiled me with three.
I love May teevee cause often times the last few episodes of a season are among the coolest a show will have, but it also means waiting for these shows to return... thank god Burn Notice returns soon
I remember a Ghostbusters episode where Winston was playing in a supernatural baseball game for what turned out to be Peter's soul, but I don't think that's the one you're talking about.
Also, Jack with the beige jumpsuit and nuke hanging out of his backpack made him look like a Ghostbuster for much of the episode.
alright, things I noticed
It seemed to me that Jacob made physical contact with everyone, either touching them himself or through a shared item. Especially how when Jacob touched Locke, Locke immediately came 'back'(?) to life. Could this mean anything? Does being touched by Jacob warrant you a certain 'fate'?
Jacob's last lines 'they're coming', after which fake-Locke immediately thew him to the fire. Not much of a mystery if they come back or die, now is it? Why is fake-Locke afraid of them?
Speaking of fake-Locke, is it the island? Smoky? If we assume that the smoke monster can (as it has been hinted) take corporeal form of someone in the island, can he be fake-Locke and thus be receiving orders from the island, because he is the island?
Are we then to assume that the island and Jacob are different entities? Meaning that the island is man #2
The scene where fake-Locke tells Locke that he's going to have to die takes a whole different perspective now, Locke ended up being just a pawn (damn it)
I also thought Juliet's flashback was supposed to explain her motivation, how two people can love each other but at the same time not feel right.
I couldn't help but associate Mark Pellegrino--and, by extension, Patrick Fischler--with his role in MULHOLLAND DRIVE. Maybe all of LOST actually takes place in that movie.
That's all I've got right now. It was great. I'm exhausted.
Eu gostei bastante desse finale. Tb acho que vimos o final de Juliet. Uma pena.
No final ao que parece, Lost é uma série sobre vingança. Pelo oq eu entendi tudo que vimos até agora foram coisas causadas pelo man #2 com o proposito de matar Jacob. Até janeiro.
So things that we assume will be resolved next season:
1. The two skeletons they find in season one (Rose and Bernard?)
2. The backgammon set from season one (Jacob and his nemesis?)
3. Smoky: is Jacob? his nemesis? separate?
3. Clair and Christian are... where?
4. Walt - he was special yet unexpected or too special (when the others gave him back after kidnapping him)
And I"m sure plenty more mysteries that I'm assuming will be wrapped up.
We all know that the island has the ability to heal. Maybe Jacob is the source of that ability which is why he was able to revive Locke.
Also, I hate to be petty, but again, the ancient buildings/tombs seem in rather close (and unbelievable) proximity to the the Dharma buildings. How could anyone from Dharma overlook such things during construction?
One more thing--I'm guessing the very end was an homage to the end of BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES.
One more thought, did anyone else get the idea that Juliet is somehow going to be extremely connected with the smoke monster if the show goes in a direction that leads to the smoke monster existing? With the emphasis on the chains pulling her down and the fact that whenever the smoke monster pulled something into it's lair it sounded like chains or a crank, me and my viewing party immediately believed she was going to either become the smoke monster or cause the creation of it, etc. Any proof that it existed before that point? (Solid proof I mean, such as a sighting.) Any thoughts?
I will second the "Goddammit, MUST WE ALWAYS GO BACK TO THE STUPID TRIANGLE AGAIN?!" Good god, and then they get rid of the one character I rooted for in it. I really, really wish Matthew Fox didn't have contractual immunity/was "the hero." My toilet is more heroic than Jack is. The worst moments of this show all seem to involve him and/or the triangle from hell, and every time they go back there it's awful.
Seriously, mostly I was just mad watching this one because it was Idiot Central. All of this is because Emo Jack can't just kiss and make up with Kate? Rilly? Juliet goes along with it? Rilly? I have loved this season until the last two episodes, which just make me want to stab someone a la Daddy Issues Ben.
I might be going against the grain here, but I think Kate is a "ruiner of men" on this show. I would love if she disappeared and Jack and Sawyer could be free. That weird quad crap that showed up in the second hour was just that, crap. It spoiled an otherwise interesting finale for me. The romantic relationships on this show --if they weren't established before the crash-- need to stop.
Sayid better live and it was nice to see Jack in ass kicking mode. Rose and Bernard was a pleasant surprise. I'd have the the same reaction as them if Juliet, Kate and Sawyer showed up!
I am disappointed their was no movement on the Jin/Sun front and no Claire. But otherwise, I was entertained.
Ah, and at the beginning, Jacob is 'bringing' people to the island. Throughout the flashbacks, he did exactly that. History repeating itself?
I have to disagree with the theory 'the incident created the smoke monster'. I thought about it myself,,, but then again, the others already had the sonic barrier, which presumably existed there to protect them from the monster.
I'm a bit confused about the time/space thing...
Firstly, can 2 versions of the same person inhabit one time period?
At first, I thought this was answered (yes) when Locke saw Locke w/ Ben and Richard in the jungle. But now that can be explained away by the fact that one of those Locke's wasn't really Locke. But then I suppose there is a young (1977) and future (2007) version of the Losties during the Dharma days.
Secondly, what happens when a 2007 version of a person dies in 1977? Do they cease to exist as soon as 2008 hits? But not up until that point? If Jughead detonates in 1977, perhaps the future is altered. But what happens to the 2007 people that just died as a result? They don't end up on the island in 2003 but what happens when they hit 2007?
I hope I am making more sense than the closed loop thing.
Also, if those 2 skeletons were Rose and Bernard, how can they be alive if they are already dead? What happens if a future
I like the idea of
I agree that it's likely Jacob may have healed Locke after he fell from the window- not completely, but enough to prevent him from dying outright.
Also, that ending was a total ripoff from the first season finale of "Sledge Hammer".
Smokey was depicted in one of the hierroglyphs I thought (in the scene where Ben faces Smokey himself).
Jacob seemed to want Ben to kill him. He answered to Ben's pain with 'what of it', he could've at least tried to talk his way out of that situation. Being killed must've been part of the plan. In my eyes, Jacob wanted to point out to Ben that he had a choice, so he can punish him whenever Jacob comes back.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/f/f9/MonsterImage.jpg/800px-MonsterImage.jpg
"Firstly, can 2 versions of the same person inhabit one time period?"
For sure they can; Adult Miles was on the island at the same time that Baby Miles was. They never met, but Adult Miles was at least close enough to see his younger self in the window of Chang's Dharma house.
Alan I'm kind of surprised you liked this episode so much, and also that you thought the Bernard and Rose scene was good.
I love Rose and Bernard, but them being told they might be about to die and saying, essentially, "so?" was just ridiculous to me. I like the idea of them living off by themselves, "retired", but most of the scene was written incredibly cheesy.
My biggest problem with this episode is that I do not buy, at all, their motivations for detonating a freaking hydrogen bomb, which they know perfectly well is going to kill everyone. Jack wants to be with Kate...so he'll kill everybody on the island....Juliet saw Sawyer look at Kate....so he'll kill everybody on the island. Kate is willing to kill everyone on the island because....um....Jack asked nicely? Sawyer changed his mind because....? Hurley goes along with this because....? Miles goes along with this, even though he gave the most reasoned answer as to why it's ridiculous, because....?
The other thing that bugs me is that the Dharma Initiative is not an evil organization, they are just scientists doing research...and Jack has no problem shooting them? Really? Does this not bug anyone else? How many of these guys did Jack shoot and kill tonight? For what? They're essentially minding their own business doing some sort of scientific work. He's basically murdering innocent people. Why? So he can set off a nuclear bomb and murder the rest of them.
There were scenes that were suspenseful and exciting, but I just don't buy that any of these characters would truly be so ready to explode a nuclear bomb on an island full of people.
The Jacob/Locke stuff was quite intriguing, and I'm most interested to see how that plays out.
I'm still excited about the final season, but I really can't get past the craziness of this bomb idea for the finale.
Also, it seems pretty clear Miles is right, because the bomb has to be what blew the top of the statue off.
I'm really curious to see how they resolve all of this. There were a lot of interesting ideas put forth in this episode, but from a character development angle I just can't believe that these people would take the actions they did in this episode.
Re: Jacob and man #2 (who I want to somehow be connected to Alvar Hanso) being dressed in black & white.
Remember the backgammon game from season one - one side is black, one side is white. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to label black bad and white good.
More thoughts in the morning, but great, great finale.
I guess I mean two closer versions...what happens if someone were to time travel back 2 seconds ? What happens at the end of those 2 seconds? Does one go poof?
Observations:
There are two forces behind all of this. Jacob, who we've heard about but never seen before tonight, and Man #2.
Man #2 wants to kill Jacob, but he can't do it himself. He needs Richard to get him in to see him and he needs someone else to actually do the deed.
Throughout the first few seasons, the smoke monster is sizing up the Losties, scanning their brains, looking for someone he can manipulate and own completely and utterly.
He finds that man in John Locke, a sad man who will place his trust in anyone and anything that tells him he's destined for something better.
Throughout the first few seasons, a series of miraculous events happen that make Locke think that "the Island" has a special destiny for him.
"The Island" in this case is Man #2. He fixes Locke's legs, appears to him in the cabin, heals his bulletwound in the pit etc. etc. Man #2/Smokey appears to Locke as Christian Shepherd to tell Locke that he has to die and bring all his friends back.
This is all just Man #2's plan to put Locke into position.
Locke is made leader of the Others because Locke told Richard in 1957 that he would eventually be their leader. It's a paradox. Richard gave him all the tests and Locke failed them all. Locke wasn't meant to be the Other's leader, it was all a clever trick played on them by Man #2.
Irony alert: When jack finally stands up for Locke to tell Richard to give him a chance, Locke is actually dead. Heh. Jack is completely wrong.
So LOST is the story of Man #2 running a looooooong con on Locke and, through him, The Others (who are Jacob's people). The final key moment is when he takes Locke's form and tells Richard to send real Lock on his journey.
Ok. So through this con, Man #2 is able to trick the Others into seeing Locke as their leader and get Locke out of the way so he can impersonate him. This will get him in the door.
As for Ben, all season long, we've been watching Man #2 run another con on Ben to get him to turn on Jacob. When Ben tried to summon the smoke monster, it didn't work, because the smoke monster was standing right next to him. Then the smoke monster led him away to the temple where it took the form of Alex to lie to Ben some more. The goal is to coopt Ben.
Meanwhile, Jacob has been executing his own plan, a kind of backup plan that will have the Losties resetting time to undo the work that Man #2 is doing. In this episode we see Jacob putting his plan into place, making stuff happen so that the Losties will be sent back in time where they can reset things. perhaps Jacob realized he was going to get killed this time around and tried to plan for that eventuality.
So yeah, Christian = Claire = Ecko's brother = Smokey = Man #2 = "The Island"
It's very moving to learn that Locke was really just a big dumb patsy from day 1. His confidence was all based on false premises.
Other thoughts:
That was the last of Rose and Bernard. Their story is finished. I doubt we see them again.
I also doubt we see Juliet again. Like Rose and Bernard, she chose her fate and went out on her own terms. She's "retired" from the game, so to speak.
So LOST has really just been one long con to put Locke into leadership of the Others so man #2 can get close to him and kill him.
I am ok with this. I think it's pretty awesome, actually.
I love Rose and Bernard, but them being told they might be about to die and saying, essentially, "so?" was just ridiculous to me. I like the idea of them living off by themselves, "retired", but most of the scene was written incredibly cheesy.I think we need to remember that Rose had cancer, and was going to die before this island: like Juliet and Sawyer, they were totally content to stop jumping around and just live on their own, outside of all that madness. If it comes down to it, they'd rather die where they are in some explosion then run around like young kids - they're retired, they had three more years than they ever expected to have, and they're content with that.
It's romantic. And I agree with the above poster - my vote's for them as the Adam and Eve.
Thank you, Alan. Thank you for taking such time and thought to always right these even when you're exhausted. I think I can speak for everyone in saying we all appreciate you beyond words.
I agree with you fully: I. Don't. Care.
I love this show. I am totally able to suspend all disbelief. I feel safe in Damon & Carlton's hands.
Though I love the idea of them as a team in the Catskills. Can someone remake Dirty Dancing (blasphemy!) and put them on stage?! ;)
My word verification: "querpsy". I can only imagine that is the feeling a Lostie has at the instant the Lost screen comes up on a finale.
Yeah, that Rose/Bernard scene seemed to be gratuitously for the fans. (however, seeing Vincent did not offend).
I can't completely agree that Dharma is just a bunch of scientists doing their thing. They are (seemingly unethically) hiding dead bodies in their experimentation and they seem to have no problems with torture (crazy witch doctor dude). Radzinsky seems entirely self-serving and unconcerned with the safety of others. Those Dharma folks "minding their own business" also seem eager and ready to shoot whomever gets in the way of their "research."
Anyone else get that Sawyer was visited by two people on the day his parents were buried. The first was Jacob, who gave him the pen. The second one was the Real Sawyer, Anthony Cooper, who stressed upon our Mr. Ford to "Let it Go".
Obviously, that didn't happen.
@Alabaster
For whatever reason - perhaps for the sake of checks and balances, good vs evil, etc - I don't quite believe that Man #2 can heal. Making their "game" as you've proposed more complicated. And more interesting.
Wouldn't it be fun if Man #2 had to trick Jacob into healing Locke to fulfill his master plan of killing him?
I also think Rose and Bernard's acceptance and inner peace also kept them safe from smoky/Man #2. No destruction. No corruption. Just love. Just being.
@Hobbs
Have you read Grant Morrison's New X-Men run from 2002-2004? I know Lindelof has. There's a very close parallel.
In that story, the X-Men meet a Chinese mutant named Xorn who has a star in his brain and have incredible healing powers. One of the first things he does is heal Professor X's legs so he can walk around again. The X-men love him.
Later on, its revealed that Xorn is actually one of the X-Men's greatest foes in disguise, and that he'd actually been using his very different powers to fake healing abilities.
I think that's exactly what Man #2 is doing here. If Jacob is a healer who can bring Locke back to life after his fall and heal jack's patient when he operates on her, maybe man #2 has powers that can "fake" it well enough to work.
Maybe, like Xorn, Man #2 fake healed Locke's legs. Locke always feared his mobility would go away on him if he disappointed the Island. He was dead right, he just didn't realize that "the island" was actually an entity with designs on him.
ok sooo first of all this finale was amazing!!! i loved the flashbacks and they ways that they connected older parts of the show back into the finale. Now getting to some major points!
* Now that we know that Locke is really dead and that the person guiding everyone for the last few episodes was this Man #2, al lot of things seem to make so much more sense! Like how Christian Shepard was on the island alive! This, in my mind, had to have been Man #2 already setting things up for his plan and working on Locke.
* And it seems to me that whoever this Man #2 is, he can make himself look like anyone who is dead on the island (Christian, Alex and Locke, if not others).
* I also did not like the way that Juliet kept changing her mind, i mean its not like they're planning on detonating an H-bomb or anything? and the whole about Jack and Kate was a little annoying. I for one felt that Jack was never there for anyone but himself. But i was oh so sad to see the lengths he would go to try and fix something that seems like it was never meant to be.
* Now the one main thing i cannot make sense of is this- if Man #2 has been the one behind getting the Losties to the island to kill Jacob, then why was Jacob also trying to get them to the island?? and does this throw the whole destiny thing out of the window since they were all being set up in a way?
* Also, anyone else think that maybe the statue was destroyed by the bomb in the 70's???
* Jacob was an idiot to respond to Ben in the way he did after his little speech, so in a way he had that coming!
* Is it possible to say that maybe Jacob knew what was going to happen? Remember, he did ask Ilana for help!
thats all i can think of now, but i definitely need to watch it again! cant wait til the DVD comes out and of course, the 6th and final season begins!
I am gonna hazard a guess and say that a big ol' nucular 'splosion doesn't actually happen. I think Smokey jumps down that hole and swallows the blast, thereby protecting the Island. Smokey is basically a security system (Ben had to have told the truth at some point about something, even if it was accidental). I still think there are more forces at work than just Jacob and Esau (if that's what people are gonna just end up calling him, which, although i haven't studied my Bible recently, doesn't completely synch up-- unless they were mystical beings who could orchestrate time travel and such?) I think Smokey is somewhat impartial, and I would like to believe that the Island itself has, in someway, an essence. Weird how one episode changes so many things. Ajira peeps are cool with Richard, so they cool with me. Opening scene, I wanted very badly for Titus' character to manage to kill Jacob, who came across as manipulative and condescending; now i think that guys a jerk of epic proportions. I figured, before the Hurley flashback, that we wouldn't see why he decided to get on the Ajria flight until next season (there may still be more to it, though).
And as far as time travel causing people to go poof--nah. Man walks into a time machine that sends him back 2 minutes, lets say. Then, for two minutes there are two of him in the room: #1 has not yet stepped into the time machine, #2 just stepped out of it. after those two minutes are up, neither one has to just disappear, but #1 has to step into the time machine, leaving only #2, and showing a closed loop theory style time travel. If he doesn't then it just doesn't make sense, unless you wanna throw in alternate realities or something, but Fringe is working on that more than Lost.
So, if Sayid dies in 1977, there isn't anything to worry about in 2008. Cause there isn't a Sayid to be there in 2008, because in 2007 he left and went back to 1977, so again, no one has to go poof.
Make sense? If you really wanna get confused, watch the movie Primer. Lost is simple compared to the time travel hijinks in that one.
I hope Kate develops more depth as a character in the next season (fingers crossed). Not because I'm rooting for her but because she brings the story down (as everyone is pointing out).
Kate frustratingly reminds me of that girl in high school - admittedly pretty (but not quite beautiful), predictably nice, a bit too simple and completely devoid of personality - that all the guys *inexplicably* go crazy ga-ga over. She doesn't seem to bring much to the table if you ask me.
Why are Jack and Sawyer so nuts for her? I had so many eye-roll moments with her.
Perhaps, getting stuck on a half-deserted island will do that to you (in the same way with dudes in prison). And tough times DO bring people together if for nothing else than shared experiences.
But still.
I'm not convinced all those scenes of Jacob interacting with Jack, Locke, etc. is actually THE Jacob. Some actions were benevolent; pushing the idea of free will, while others were 'corrections'.
I also found nothing wrong with the 'quadrangle' of love. If I were Jack, I'd have more reasons for wanting to blow everything up... what about *all* those people that have died? The rest of flight 815? The kids that were taken away by the others? The passengers that died in the Anjira flight? If you could blow up and reset the timeline so nothing weird happened, I think more people would go for it and try to live a normal life.
Look at me, I'm swimming against the tide! :)
@chacon89
* And it seems to me that whoever this Man #2 is, he can make himself look like anyone who is dead on the island (Christian, Alex and Locke, if not others).Yemi, too, who's dead body also ended up on the island.
The statue is Tawaret, the Egyptian goddess of fertility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaret
As someone said, "what lives behind the shadow of the statue" is of course the answer "the one who will save us all."
Earlier someone mentioned connections to the Garden of Eden...its pretty obvious here the connections. Jacob is Jacob / God, Man #2 is Esau / Devil, Ben is Abraham, Locke is Jesus.
As a friend pointed out, In the old Testament, Rebecca (Jacob’s mom) is having twins, Jacob and Esau. She was having trouble during pregnancy and asks God why she was suffering. She received the prophecy that the twins were fighting in her womb and would continue to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations. The prophecy also said that the older would serve the younger, and the statement “one people will be stronger than the other,” has been taken to mean that the two nations would never gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa.
Read that last sentence of my statement, and then go read the title of the book Jacob is holding outside of the building where Locke is thrown by his father out the window. “Everything That Rises Must Converge.” So every time one of the ‘nations’ takes power, they must fight for it.
Is it possible that we have it backwards? That Jacob is really the evil one? And the presumed Esau needs to kill him to put a stop to all the bad stuff that will eventually happen? What are either of them trying to accomplish anyway?
I can't believe that no one's discussed the most important thing we learned?!?!
We learned that Kate was a NKOTB fan!
Jack, you want her back?
Serenade her with "Please Don't Go Girl" or "I'll Be Loving You."
Trust.
:)
I keed! I keed!
@Alfred, 2:18 AM
"Ah, and at the beginning, Jacob is 'bringing' people to the island. Throughout the flashbacks, he did exactly that. History repeating itself?"
That also explains how the Black Rock got to the island, and why Esau rolled his eyes at Jacob having brought them to the island. Jacob keeps on bringing people to the island, hoping to "end" things, whereas Esau says that no ending will ever take place--the people brought to the island will keep on fighting to the death, without anything being resolved.
I'm still confused. Why did the Others want Walt again?
Here is some interesting stuff I found with some quick Wiki-surfing.
The title of the book Jacob is reading comes from work done by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
Some of his teachings:
"In his posthumously published book, The Phenomenon of Man, Teilhard writes of the unfolding of the material cosmos, from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is "pulling" all creation towards it. He was a leading proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal driven way. To Teilhard, evolution unfolded from cell to organism to planet to solar system and whole-universe (see Gaia theory). Such theories are generally termed teleological views of evolution.
Teilhard attempts to make sense of the universe by its evolutionary process. He interprets mankind as the axis of evolution into higher consciousness, and postulates that a supreme consciousness, God, must be drawing the universe towards him."
One of this theories involved what is called an Omega Point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point
It's too late for me to ponder on how much of this might be relevant or not relevant and in which ways, or if the connection is even intended at all, but it's interesting regardless and seems like it could be related...
They left ALOT of freakin' things open for Season 6. I know they needed some meat to throw in the pot, but dayum, they've got quite the mountain to climb.
Not the least of which is re-uniting the people trapped in the two timelines. If there even is two timelines anymore...
Hmm... I was thinking the island was Atlantis (the LOST continent) but now I'm not sure it makes sense. A Jacob/Esau Biblical fight might work better.
I greatly enjoyed tonight's episode, but do wish we had seen just a flash of what happens next -- our gang back in the present, I assume.
And as someone else asked, yes, what was the point of the Others taking Walt again?
I think Jacob & Man #2 are not "good & evil", really. They are the Island's caretakers, playing conflicting roles. Man #2 is the protector, and Jacob the nurturer. Jacob brings people to cultivate the Island and make it a better, ever more bountiful place, but Man #2 can only see them as potential threats. The Island needs both men, which is why they are forbidden from directly killing each other.
That does not stop Man #2 from trying, of course, but Jacob is always one step ahead of him. After all, Jacob must have known what Man #2 was planning, or else why have the box for Locke's corpse on 316? If Ilana and Bram wanted to stop Ben from killing Jacob, they could have shown him the corpse back at the plane. And yes, I think Jacob purposefully goaded Ben into stabbing him.
Also, why haul Locke's corpse all that way? As proof to Richard? I don't think he needed much convincing that the man he's been following is not the real John Locke. Maybe Jacob rises from the ashes in smoke-form to possess dead-Locke and confront other-Locke for the epic Locke-on-Locke showdown. I'd watch that.
@Withnail at 2:48
Anyone else get that Sawyer was visited by two people on the day his parents were buried. The first was Jacob, who gave him the pen. The second one was the Real Sawyer, Anthony Cooper, who stressed upon our Mr. Ford to "Let it Go".Where are you getting that "the let it go" guy was Sawyer/Cooper? Did he say my name is Cooper or something? Are you just theorizing that it was Cooper? I didn't pick up on that at all. Have to rewatch it.
Dear Jack,
Please stop acting like a douchebag. I'm freaking glad Sawyer sucker-punched you. If you had any sense you would not have fought back. Grow the frak up. What, is Kate the One? The One who is your one but you screw things up so bad that you feel you need to detonate a nuke.
Good grief. It's just Kate, not Helen of Troy. Hell, even with the Trojan war they were enemies to begin with. The people on the island on the other hand, some of those were your friends while none of the others were your enemy. But nevermind that, you needed another shot with Kate, your dream girl so who cares what happens with the bomb.
By the way, your feelings of inadequacy are totally justified.
Taper
A lot of random thoughts:
Didn't love the finale, mostly for the reasons that Alan listed. Jack's rationale, Juliet flip-flopping, Kate somehow suddenly agreeing to help Jack without any substantial change other than that he and Sawyer traded blows? Some of those just didn't seem ... right for the characters. Also, the only hint on Claire was that she's not in the past, and that wasn't much of a hint. Juliet banging on the nuke wasn't exactly that great either.
That said, it's the next episode, the season 6 premiere, that will tell a lot about the impact of this finale, so they've got time to tie up loose ends. I actually liked the fact that they are implying some sort of change has been made with the new white background screen that they ended on.
I am, though, extremely happy that John Locke is dead. Hated his character with a passion, for his lack of guts, for his gullibility, and so forth. I liked O'Quinn's performance, but he was a horrible character. I think they left themselves an out with Juliet. If her show doesn't get picked up, I think it's possible she could come back later. They can explain away that John Locke was the major death.
Perhaps the most interesting part of the finale for me was the fact that Jacob saved John Locke ... only to see John Locke get turned by Jacob's nemesis. It suggests to me that, while there is fate, that the meta discussion they may be having is how much each individual can change their destiny, and to what extent.
So, did things change? My gut feeling is that, it has in some respects. I think, whatever happened, happened, but that we need to view it from a perspective of what happened after Jack and Co. happened at the hatch. I think most are expecting Jack and Co. to phase back to the future, so to that extent, whatever happened, happened. We might have some glimpses into Eloise's intent through Jacob and "evil's" intent. That is, Eloise may be trying to break the loop as well. So, why do I think that change happened, but whatever happened, happened? Because of Hurley. It was finally clarified that he was bringing back a guitar. Well ... for who? Dead is dead ... but the island itself is a variable in the process, and Hurley himself is a variable as well. In a spotty season, one of the mythological answers may be that of human choice impacting destiny - and Hurley exemplified that. It doesn't mean that Charlie will come back to life - could mean that Hurley can find a way to give Charlie peace perhaps.
Best guess on the endgame? They've long said dead is dead. I don't think they will try and reloop, as many are fearing. I think Jacob is dead. I think Jacob saw that his enemy was trying to find a loophole. If you view them as spirits of some sort, it could be that the loophole only comes as being man ... as being human beings that can influence others. Hence, Christian Sheperd is dead, but he, like Locke, was possessed by Titus Welliver's character, and in some respects, became the new lieutenant's for "evil".
I think Jacob saw all that while at the statue. As Emerson indicated, the statue was some Egyptian Goddess that, in some explanations, protected expecting mothers (forget the goddess' name, but Emerson said it in some interview - if this is too spoilery at this point, I apologize, but it was on TV I think). It could be that, at some point, "evil" was able to turn enough individuals on the island to help bring this goddess down (as exemplified by her being broken in half). Subsequently, the births stopped happening. It could be that children born on the island were meant to serve as protectors of Jacob, and that, once Jacob realized what had happened, he went out and recruited himself and army, as we saw today. He knew that the impending war between good and evil would happen.
I expect the final season to be heavy on Jack. He is the most compelling character, in terms of story, on the show, and he has long been the center of the ensemble in many respects. My guess is that Jack and Co. phase back into the present. As they figure out what has happened, Jack will be emboldened to lead "good" against evil and become the leader that Jacob was looking for. That is, Jack was meant to be the leader of the "others", not Locke. At some point, I imagine we'll have Jack's two confrontations that he must have to set the show on it's path - Jack vs. fake Locke and Jack vs. fake Dad. If you take a step back, the story is about our destiny and how we impact it, and Jack was nearly guided down the wrong path by Locke, who was influenced by evil Locke through Richard Alpert. Season 6 may be Jack's redemption and triumph.
So, we see the loose battle lines drawn, but we've also seen that people can be turned. Where exactly does Dharma fit into this equation? Are they on good or evil? In that they were put up against the Others, a group that now looks like it's on the side of good, it's possible that Dharma was utilized in some respect to give evil it's loophole. How? I'm not sure it's made clear. Where specifically do Widmore and Eloise fit in? They seem like they are on different sides of the ledger, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Widmore is on the "evil's" side.
We know that evil can tempt man. It wouldn't surprise me if the road to redemption for Jack leads to some changes in our characters. I'll be very curious how Lindelof and Cuse, along with their writers, view Sawyer now. Have they extended the storyline one more time for him? For a man who's story was wrapped up long ago, they loved him enough to find ways to extend his story a bit. He "matured" this past year, but it's clear that Cuselof view love as a passionate quantity, and the temporary/permanent loss of Juliet may shake Sawyer up. I really wonder if they are setting up on more Jack vs. Sawyer confrontation. Much as I like Sawyer as a character (whereas I vehemently hated Locke), the storyline fits for him to be "turned" and face off against Jack as Jack tries to restore order. I guess, pondering it right now, that the Locke and Sawyer characters are similar in some respects.
Sun and Jin didn't really fit in this year, and I'll be curious how they get tied together next year. I wonder if they were meant to "define" love on this show in the same way that Desmond and Penny were meant to. I'm curious where Desmond, Penny, Aaron, Jiyeon fit in, along with whatever may happen with Walt.
They've long said Season 6 would be similar to season 1 in some respects. In that respect, I think we're going to see Jack and Kate at a certain level. While I didn't like how quick she changed her mind, I think her fate is tied to Jack's.
A lot of intriguing possibilities, and a lot of time to wait.
I thought it was Cooper at first, but he started to read the letter. Elder Cooper wasn't familiar with the letter when Sawyer finally confronted him.
Also, I'm of the notion that the statue is Sobek
I believe Juliet will end up back in the future with the rest, the question on whether or not she survives her injuries is another issue. we know for sure that time jumping doesn't heal, as we saw with Locke's legs after both being shot and falling down the well.
if Mitchell's pilot was a potential issue, then the showrunners handled her in the finale perfectly. if the pilot is picked up over the next 8 months and she's one of the leads (do we know what her role in "V" is?) then they can either have had her killed in the "blast" which seems like a stretch, or have her succumb to her injuries in the first or second episode back in season 6. if its not picked up, they can heal her and she'll be just fine, ready to go.
Of course, there has to be some significance that Jacob wasn't in her flashback or that she was wearing a red/pink shirt (ala star trek), but who is to say really?
I'll second the ideas of everybody who is seeing the Garden of Eden / Jacob and Esau and Man #2 = Smokemonster.
Also +1 to just HATING Jack's motivation, and to a lesser extent Juliet's.
As for Jacob wanting to be killed . . . well, if he IS really "the one who will save us all", then is anybody else grooving on some "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" Aslan callbacks? We've already had CS Lewis homages repeatedly in the show, and the whole thing has Deeper Magic From Before the Dawn of Time written all over it.
Oh, and for a lighter touch, I thought this was funny:
http://jgoat.blogspot.com/2009/05/lost-037-recap.html
Secondly, the radiation from the explosion would explain the hazmat suits when Kelvin/Desmond/Radzinsky use when they leave the Swan, why women can't give birth on the island (the radiation) and why there was all that concrete down there (ground zero of the explosion).The problem with this, or with toonsterwu's suggestion that the bomb taking down the statue is what causes the infertility, is that we have not been told that babies stopped being born as far back as 1977. Granted, Alex was conceived off the island and so like Aaron, apparently "safe" but when Ben steals Alex in 1988/89 it doesn't seem like she's the first baby to come along in over a decade. And what about Karl? Isn't he also a teenager? Was he born on the island?
I'm sorry, I just couldn't get past Jack's reason for wanting to set off the bomb and Juliette's highly illogical flip-flop. Ruined the entire episode for me (and my wife). What ridiculous reasoning. Not surprised though. "Lost" finales consistently underwhelm me. I was hoping this time would be different.
Bernard and Rose? Really? Who cares about them at this point? I'd rather have seen Des and Penny again.
Hands up, who knew that H-bomb wasn't going to detonate when Jack threw it down the hole?
Too bad there wasn't another half-hour included so Kate and Juliette could have changed their minds one more time.
And surprise, surprise - a blinding flash of light and the end title screen. Shocking.
I love it, but this show really drives me nuts sometimes. I still think they're just throwing darts at a wall to see what sticks.
From a writer's point of view, I was kind of irked, after five years of this, to find out that there's a character they "just hadn't told us about yet" who magically links everyone together. In Greek drama, there's a well-known concept called the "deus ex machinus", which literally means "god from a machine"... This refers to the way plays were resolved in Greek drama, by lowering an actor down in the final act, playing the part of God, who would "resolve" the drama.
So this episode struck me as Jacobus ex machinus. You're telling me now that Jacob was there when Jack first counted to five, when Kate first shoplifted, when Nadia was killed, and so on? Well, gee, how CONVENIENT. NOW you tell me?
I know that stuff coming outta nowhere is part of LOST's charm, but this felt like a cheap shot to me.
Second-- uh, Widmore? Remember how the whole show thus far seems to be setting us a Widmore/Ben showdown? Turns out, as T.S. Eliot said, "That is not it at all. That is not it at all!" Now we're supposed to be all breathless to find out the REAL conflict is between Jacob, and--and--and--- wait for it!-- the dreaded, deadly, uh-- "Man Number Two."
It's also considered bad form in fiction to introduce major characters after the beginning of the third act of the drama. I'd say the third act began long ago. And we're finding out NOW about Man #2? (Whom I too like calling Esau, after the other posters here.)
Also: my teenagers noted that LOST has this thing about always killing off the cutest women. Et tu, Juliet? Loved this character, this actress, and truly hated to see her go.
Sounds like all I have are complaints. No, no, no. I loved this episode; I loved this season. When we went to the NEW ENDING LOGO: WHITE AND BLACK REVERSED!!!! we all screamed, then pretended to cry. "This is why this is the best, and most frustrating show in the world!" we all said.
With all the carping, I adored this show. So much to love: the alligator faced statue (the god "Set"?), the sad, sad, finding of the Drive Shaft ring in the cradle (I forgot that Claire never found this!), the Jack/Sawyer smackdown, and best of all, that little scene for Vincent and Rose and Bernard. "We're retired."
Felt sad, like others have posted above, that there was no "All of Hurley's Ghosts" episode, if only to let us see LIbby one more time. Ah, Libby!
As the final inverted logo suggests, from now on, black is white, and everything we've known will henceforward be inverted. As the Firesign Theatre noted, "Everything You Know Is Wrong."
Let the agonizing six month wait begin.
Jenny
P.S. It would have been nice to hear Locke say, one last time, "Dont' tell me what I can't do!"
To go along with the Chardin comments earlier: O'Connor's story is on one level about the civil rights movement, but in another about what spiritual progress really is. In both cases, that teleological goal is unity--there is no progress that deepens divisions and animosity.
In this case, the show has piled up all sorts of antagonisms: Jacob/Man #2, Ben/Widmore, Jack/Sawyer, Dharma/Others. As man #2 says, its an endless series of conflicts on this island, and that Jacob/Man #2 mirrors that.
With that in mind, I wonder if Jacob's plan (including Ben killing him) is another kind of "loophole" meant to find a way out of those cycles of violence (Rose's comments about still shooting each other are relevant here). That is, since Jacob/Man #2 are constantly trying but unable to kill each other, a resolution of that conflict means the potential to resolve the others as well, which I don't think are directly related.
Thus, for man #2, there are only never ending cycles of violence. For Jacob, there is a final ending where all those conflicts are resolved, where things converge. It's all very Hegelian in its way, but don't need to go there.
I also have to say that Jacob sure came off pretty God-like here. There's the old question of if God/Jacob is good, why does he allow bad things to happen to people? This is the essence of the charge Ben kills him with. And Jacob doesn't really refute it. But it seems like there's some higher plan he's getting accomplished here, and Jacob's death (a crucifixion in its way) is just part of it.
Jerry-- we posted nearly the same comment simultaneously. Weird.
I'll just note that I thought that they'd chosen EVERYTHING THAT RISES etc for Jacob to read as a darkly funny contrast to what's about to happen to John Locke-- i.e., the opposite of everything rising. For John Locke, at that moment, everything is falling.
I agree that the smoke monster is not fake-Locke as he was genuinely suprised that Ben spoke to Alex and that Alex told him to follow Locke.
Also, there are more than just Jacob and Man #2 as forces on the island. At the beginning of the episode, Man #2 says to Jacob, "You know they all want to kill you." This suggests that there are multiple forces (at least four - otherwise Man # 2 wouldn't have said "they") on the island, not just Jacob and Man #2. The smoke monster could be a third one but who are the other forces? I think it's these other forces that are behind Jacob's death and not Man #2. Man #2 seemed to actually like Jacob, maybe he somehow saves him?
Oh, and as for the guitar, didn't the oceanic 6 have to mimic the same situations as the original castaways when they came back to the island? Charlie had a guitar so someone had to have a guitar with him on the flight back.
Excellent episode- a couple quick thoughts on some earlier posts. Esau was not evil- he was pissed because Jacob stole his birthright. Jacob does not = God (he wrestles with God) and Esau forgives Jacob and they all live happily ever after. So I don't agree with the Jacob/Esau talk.
As far as motivation much of the purpose of the show I think was to show people make these major choices because of seemingly random and maybe even insignificant things that happen in their lives. I have no problem with what Jack said is his reason for blowing up the bomb. We've come to find out over the last 5 years Jack is a very complicated lunkhead that's not real good at expresssing his emotions or thinking things through. Just because he says he's doing this because of Kate doesn't mean that's his only or even primary reason. He broke up with Kate to come back to the island. He's just confused.
I don't like to be a naysayer but I was just really let down both by the finale and this entire season.
I think last season was much stronger in so many ways, the overall threat was more palpable and the pieces moved more swiftly together. Even though we all knew the Oceanic 6 were gonna be saved in last season's finale, I still was on the edge of my seat. That was good storytelling and acting.
Alan, I like how you explain the Jacob/Esau mythology underlying everything that has happened from Season 1. But I think you give the show's writers too much credit. To me, it feels like an enormous cheat after 100 episodes to suddenly just change the game. You can't just introduce Jacob/Esau in one episode -- hint at their epic rivalry-- and then weave Jacob into multiple flashbacks to support this mythology. It just felt a little flimsy and lame. If Jacob was really this important to the mythology of the island, he should have been woven in from season one (and I mean in more ways than just being "mentioned.")
As for Locke being dead, or Sayid and Juliet dying? Does any of it matter?? It would have a lot more impact if "dead really was dead." However, if Jack is successful with his theory, then everything is reset so none of this ever happened. What we witnessed over 100 episodes really adds up to nothing if it can all be erased with one detonation of a bomb. It's "The Wizard of Oz" and Dorothy is going to wake up from her strange and fantastical dream as if nothing ever happened.
In such, we the VIEWERS have been the ones manipulated -- much like John Locke --into thinking any of this matters.
Also, I didn't feel the acting was very strong. Sun, Hurley, Miles and others had no emotions to display. In fact, Hurley seemed to just disappear completely from the action once the incident began occurring.
The two strongest moments of the entire finale to me (because they evoked some emotion) were:
1) The surprise return of Vincent, Rose and Bernard (yes, they found the real secret to life)
2) Juliet resigning herself to death; knowing that Sawyer loved her.
WORD VERIFICATION: SHNOMB- a bomb used to reset island history; or a device used in storytelling to erase everything that came before
Speaking of Hurley, I had a brief thought. Assuming that dead is dead, even if you are a higher being like Jacob, then someone has to replace him to balance things out again? Two things stand out about Jacob's visits to me -
a) He visited Jack as an adult, pushing him to become a stronger, better person. The thought crossing my mind right now is that the two sides were battling over Jack - that Man #2/evil Locke tried to specifically turn him, whereas Jacob was guiding Jack, but knowing that humans have free will.
b) He visited Hurley really late in the game, with the specific purpose of getting him on the flight. The thought crossing my mind right now is this - assuming that Jack is the chosen one, the guy to lead the fight for good, could Hurley be, in some respects, Jacob's replacement. Like Jacob, he has a unique ability, and Jacob has shared with him that he's been blessed. If there's a character largely considered good in the series, it's Hurley.
I do agree with the deus ex machina comment from above. The finale was a bit uneven. Much of how it will be perceived rests with what happens in the premiere next January.
Just a quick contrarian view...just because Locke's corpse still existed doesn't mean the resurrected Locke wasn't Locke.
We've been watching the resurrected Locke a long time, and he seemed like the same Locke to all of us. He had all the same mannerisms, such as his habit of replying to good questions with a small smile and a cryptic answer, the way he would always be looking away from the person he was talking to while delivering earth-shaking news ("I'm going to kill Jacob"). He was Locke all the way through. (Although I'll buy the idea that he's possessed somehow.)
On a much more minor but similar note, it hasn't been established yet that Hurley's guitar is a guitar. Jacob only said that it wasn't his guitar.
Kudos to everyone who pointed out that the bomb/Incident does not reset everything--we've already seen things that are the result of the most recent timeline, such as Chang's missing limb, Desmond's radiation suit, fertility problems on the island, and so on and so on.
I hope Titus Welliver is back in the next season!
I agree about Jack's motives. If this were BSG, we'd see Bill Adama strap the nuke to his back while reading a list of all those who died.
That's 'case Bill Adama is awesome.
Request for info: we were having thunderstorms and a tornado watch through the entire finale, and our satellite signal went out right after Lapidus was told he was a candidate until the commercial break after that scene - so presumably that was when they showed him what was in the box. Can someone tell me what they told him he was a candidate for, and what happened in that scene up to the commercials?
This feels like the last part of the 3rd Matrix movie:
2 warring factions are constantly fighting, with no one winning. Eventually one side figures out a way to end it (have Ben kill Jacob, have Neo choose love over humanity)
Well, we knew the bomb was going to figure into the finale in a big way, the minute it was introduced earlier in the season. But I think the moral quandary of whether to detonate it and "reset" time got short shrift. Kate asked Jack if the time on the island had been all misery -- and no, it wasn't. There are so many implications with the decision, and I was disappointed to see all of that almost completely ignored, in favor of making it be about Jack not getting the girl.
I agree with many other comments here, that motivation seemed to be the weakest part of this finale. Juliet up and deciding that, okay, maybe she and James don't belong together. Why? The rest of the team wanting to Stop Jack, no wait, Help Jack...why?
I did love the appearance of Rose, Bernard and Vincent. That they were living well, and at peace, was a positive moment in the finale.
And Ben just rocked. ("Do you expect me to believe that?" "Not really.") The look on his face when Jacob asks, basically, yeah what about you Ben?
So, mixed feelings about this one. And some concern for season six. I was seriously worried about the BSG ending, and ended up enjoying it very much, to my relief. I hope I will be able to say the same of Lost.
A few points:
1. At the beginning of the episode, Man #2 says to Jacob, "You know they all want to kill you."I am pretty sure you misheard Man #2/"Esau"; he said "Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?" Big difference!
2. After re-watching the opening scene a few times, it seems that the core argument between Jacob and "Esau" is that Jacob is trying to prove "Esau" wrong about something - "Esau" says "still trying to prove me wrong?" and Jacob replies "You ARE wrong".
I have a strong feeling/theory that this argument, and what Jacob thinks "Esau" is wrong about, is the core of their fight and is going to be revealed to be the main driver of everything that has happened in bringing people (Oceanic 815, Oceanic Six, Ajira, Dharma, etc.) to the island.
So, what could "Esau" be wrong about?
Throughout the episode Jacob keeps telling different characters that they "have a choice".
Given that one of the main themes of this season was destiny, and what can a person change, I think that this core argument is going to boil down to a question of choice and free will.
I think that Jacob believes that man has free will and will choose to do the right thing - or the good thing. We see this in his conversation with Hurley, and we see it very strongly in the final conversation with Ben before he drives a knive into his chest. "Esau", for some reason, disagrees.
3. I'm fascinated/impressed at how this show continues to further draw back the curtains and expand the scope of the show with each season. At the end of season 1, we thought the main conflict would become "Survivors of Oceanic 815 vs the Others". Then by the end of Season 3 and throughout Seasons 4 and 5, it seems as if the main conflict is going to become "Widmore vs Ben". Now the curtain is drawn back even further to reveal that Ben (and probably Widmore as well) are both essentially pawns, and the main conflict is Jacob vs Man #2.
And the fascinating thing is, this isn't annoying! It doesn't feel cheap or like a cop-out at all. I'm impressed with how well this has all been handled by the show's runners, to keep all the diehard fans (such as all of us) still intrigued and loving it.
4. I'm curious to know why Alan thinks that the ending of the Season 1 finale was a "tactical error". In what ways was the hatch non-reveal an error? Do you mean because it may have disappointed some, or wasn't what they were expecting? If so, I don't know if not giving the viewers what they expected/wanted, when they wanted it, should be considered an error.
If anything else, I think that final shot of the S1 finale showed the fans that the secrets of this show would be revealed when the writers wanted, how they wanted, and on their schedule. Much like how you've often said that The Wire is a show that teaches you how to watch it, I think that Lindeloff and Cuse have often taught us how to watch Lost. They've brought us to a point now where an episode like this one can spend a significant amount of time on characters and on a conflict that we've never seen before, and the audience isn't left expecting immediate answers or confused, but instead is left confident that the ride along the way to finding out these answers is going to be fun and awesome.
It was actually the Chinaman who peed on the Dude's rug. Mark Pelligrino was obviously not a golfer.
Also, I'm guessing their camp would have been pretty rundown if left unattended for three years.
Meister wrote:
>>Firstly, can 2 versions of the same person inhabit one time period?>>
Sure (see: Miles and young Miles). In reference to your later question about going back in time 2 seconds, what would happem (in theory) is that a second person would show up, and two seconds later, the first one would vanish (going back in time 2 seconds) and the second one would go on like normal, with no other version of himself.
>>Secondly, what happens when a 2007 version of a person dies in 1977?>>
They die in 1977. Their 2007 selves in 1977 have no effect on their existence up till 2007, as to the people in 1977, 2007 is their past. It already happened to them.
>>But what happens to the 2007 people that just died as a result? They don't end up on the island in 2003 but what happens when they hit 2007?>>
Nothing. As they never want back in time in the first place. If the bomb does what Fariday hopes it would, then the hatch is never built, Desomnd never fails to hit the button, and the plane doesn't crash. And none of what transpired on the show ever actually happens.
>>Also, if those 2 skeletons were Rose and Bernard, how can they be alive if they are already dead?>>
They aren't already dead in 1977. They were dead in 2004 (if that was them) so then they die at some point between 1977 and 2004. But the 2004 versions of them (the ones that haven't gone back in time yet)are alive. Then they go back in time to 1977. And presumably eventually die in the cave at some point. And are discovered (by possibly themselves) in 2004. It's like 2007 Miles running into 1977 Miles.
I'm going to agree with Lizbeth, I didn't like the finale much at all and I completely missed that Locke wasn't really Locke's ghost but the Man#2 guy from the first scene with Jacob. Basically, I shut down interest once Juliet fell down the well and I think it may be one of the most stupid deaths of the show. Everyone seems to agree that the whole Jack/Kate/Sawyer love crap has never worked and I am beyond upset that Sawyer finally had a chance at love with Juliet, and they kill her off. Then having to see her gurgle blood and detonate the bomb while dying was even worse to witness. Although I assume Juliet's detonation of the bomb will maybe alter the future somehow, I'm confused how the show would explain what's happening 30 years in the future with Sun and The Others about to confront Ben and not-Locke's ghost. If they changed history with the bomb, wouldn't Sun, et al not be there?
Other notes: Back in Season One, Jack's Count to 5 speech always seemed interesting, but the execution of it on the finale had no suspence at all for me. Jack whines to his father yet again when his father actually helped him save the woman's spine and the whole scene felt too short for it to seem so important for Jack's character, but whatever I guess.
On the young Kate with the lunchbox front, I assumed she used the lunchbox as the time capsule, that caused her to go back for it as an adult, that murdered her friend, that made her a fugitive, that had her end up in Australia, etc etc. If Jacob hadn't let her keep the lunchbox (or at least, continue doing questionably illegal things without real consequences which is something Kate has done throughout the show), then she wouldn't have ended up on the island after all.
I'm more interested in why Jacob needed Ilana to help him out as she recovered in the Russian? hospital. Ben wound up killing Jacob, so her help didn't come in time, so what was the point of that scene? I may not find out though since I'm still pretty upset Elizabeth Mitchell died and I may just stop watching. I'm tired of the show killing off every character I like.
Wu peed on the rug!
have a strong feeling/theory that this argument, and what Jacob thinks "Esau" is wrong about, is the core of their fight and is going to be revealed to be the main driver of everything that has happened in bringing people (Oceanic 815, Oceanic Six, Ajira, Dharma, etc.) to the island............................................
Of all the ways this could show could go for it to come down to a "bet" or an experiment would dissappoint me the most. Besides that was already settled in Trading Places.
Ok, so I've read all the comments and didn't see anyone mention my biggest gripe about this episode (which I loved by the way). So you're telling me that the velocity of the bomb being dropped and hitting the end of the drill site couldn't detonate the bomb but Juliet smacking on it with a rock could? Wha?!? Why do I just not buy that?
Other observations/comments:
-Loved that Sun found the Charlie's ring- they made such a point to show Charlie hiding that ring in Aaron's blanket a few seasons ago, it was nice that they brought that fairly "full-circle".
-I think that Jacob going to meet our 815ers wasn't so much to lead them towards the island- I think the most important thing was Jacob somehow touching each of them. I think that is definitely going to come into play in this upcoming last season.
-Watching everyone glance around at each other as they were waiting for the bomb to detonate? Heartbreaking. Sawyer trying to save Juliet and their last words to each other? Double heartbreaking.
Can't wait for 2010!!!
RIP John Locke...what else is there to say? Really?
"Jacob, meanwhile, was played by Mark Pellegrino, whom you might know as Rita's sleazy ex-husband Paul on "Dexter," or as the guy in "The Big Lebowski" who peed on The Dude's rug -- which is a shame, as it really tied the room together."
It was the Chinaman who peed on the Dude's rug...but the Chinaman is no the issue here.
Shame on the rest of the commenters for not picking that up til now.
It occurs to me, to my great shame, that Pellegrino didn't pee on The Dude's rug. It was his partner.
Aren't there any Greek scholars out there? The weaving from the beginning of the show had something in Greek on the top of it and that is the tapestry (?) hanging on the wall at the end that Jacob says takes a long time when you make your own thread(or somesuch). Are ancient Greek and modern Greek the same? I think I have some research to do for the day.
If you consider that Man #2 is some personification of the Smoke Monster (which is my theory), then it will seem a lot less like a deus ex machina---he was, in fact, introduced in the very first episode, along with the "dark vs light" theme that Jacob and Man #2 seemed to embody here.
I find the idea of Locke being a dupe all along compelling, though it doesn't really jibe with Jacob reviving him after his fall. I think he may still have a bigger part to play.
And I also remember Mark Pellegrino and Patrick Fischler from their small parts in Mulholland Drive, which, if you think about it, were linked: both were sitting on the same side of the booth in Winkie's, and Fischler was the man Naomi Watts saw right after talking to Pellegrino.
And, of course, I was admitting my mistake at the same time other people were pointing it out. Sigh....
It's inconceivable that the losties in the past don't come back to the present. But they can't just explain it away with the bomb can they?
As for Juliet, V is one of the anticipated pilots so odds are it'll get a green light from ABC. And Sayid in that Dharma uniform. They found that body with that uniform in that bus, so Sayid must have died, right?
I don't know that man#2 can be the smoke monster because Locke seemed genuinly surprised when Ben told him his dead daughter told him to do what he (Locke) said.
I do agree though Anonymous that Locke still has a roll to play. What if the bomb resets some things but not all - for example somehow counteracts Locke's and Jacob's murder - I don't know just thinking. But I think they made it a point last night that Jacob was not only working before flight 815 to bring people to the island but also after to bring people back. Also Jacob's conversation with Ben seemed very deliberate and provocative.
They found that body with that uniform in that bus, so Sayid must have died, right?
The body in the bus was Ben's dad.
There seems to be an assumption that the flash of light at the end was the detonation of the nuclear device, but we've seen more than one instance in the past of similar phenomenon. Blinding white light when Desmond trips the failsafe to save the Island in 2004, and blinding white light each time the Losties jump in time.
I suspect the later might be the case.
The horrific reveal of John Locke not being John Locke has thrown me into a manic funk.
Contemplating that we are all just pawns in an elaborate backgammon game cheapens the mystique of the show and gives me pause.
Like the aforementioned "Trading Places" infused with a healthy dose of Camus' "The Fall" (the latter more closely resembling our interaction between jacob and Man #2)... the show has demoralized me.
What we've learned now is that all the love, hate, and overall suffering and happiness we've seen... is nothing more than one long con to answer a debate between a couple of supernatural beings. And that just sucks.
I guess I mean two closer versions...what happens if someone were to time travel back 2 seconds ? What happens at the end of those 2 seconds? Does one go poof?if a person traveled back in time for 2 seconds then he would see himself travel back in time again. that's it. original person travels back in time. he sees his slightly older self travel in time. what happens after that is up to them.
On the shallower side of things...
d@mn did Julliet look hot running around in that shirt last night!
We've lost an incredible pair if she is in fact gone.
In keeping with the Latin precedent, can we agree Alpert is Ricardus not Ricardos?
Ricardos are a 1950s bandleader, his wacky wife and their son Little Ricardo.
Anonymous said...
Aren't there any Greek scholars out there? The weaving from the beginning of the show had something in Greek on the top of it and that is the tapestry (?) hanging on the wall at the end that Jacob says takes a long time when you make your own thread(or somesuch). Are ancient Greek and modern Greek the same? I think I have some research to do for the day.According to Lostpedia, it says "may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires". Also interesting is the eye at the top with many arms stretching out from it to touch the people below, much like Jacob has been going around touching people.
Maybe they are on Coooba Norm.
In keeping with the Latin precedent, can we agree Alpert is Ricardus not Ricardos?
I can leave it up to the Latin scholars to decide (as I'm clearly ignorant on that subject), but it sounded like Ilana said Ri-CAR-dose, not Ri-CAR-dus.
I'm kind of shocked that most of you haven't mentioned how FUCKING PHENOMENAL Josh Holloway was. Jesus christ! I never knew he had it in him. From the discussion with Jack to his final screams for Juliet - he stole the whole gorram show.
If the answer is two god-like presensce, I don't care. It doesn't feel cheap like BSG.
I think everyone is putting too much emphasis on Jack's detonating the bomb due to his complicated love with Kate. It goes deeper then that. He only answered that way because Sawyer asked him what he wanted and he admitted he wanted Kate. Sawyer points out that she's right out there and Kate confirms this by saying she's still by his side but he does it anyway.
Sigh, so long till the final season.
Withnail said...
Anyone else get that Sawyer was visited by two people on the day his parents were buried. The first was Jacob, who gave him the pen. The second one was the Real Sawyer, Anthony Cooper, who stressed upon our Mr. Ford to "Let it Go".
Withnail, I don't think that was Anthony Cooper. There wasn't any indication of that. It seemed pretty obvious to me that the man was some sort of relative or friend of Sawyer's family that was taking care of him after his parents died.
Mad props to everyone posting. I have nothing to add at the moment but I really enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. You are a really smart, creative bunch of people and reading your comments immeasurably enriches the experience of being a Lost fan.
Sorry, didn't read all the comments - I'm at work.
If you can't read all the comments, you don't get to comment. Rule #5
Mad props to everyone posting. I have nothing to add at the moment but I really enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. You are a really smart, creative bunch of people and reading your comments immeasurably enriches the experience of being a Lost fan.
What he said. Lots of great stuff here: dubbing Man #2 "Esau," Jacob touching everybody, backgammon, the inverted logo, etc.
You guys rock.
So, are Rose and Bernard the two skeletons that are found in the cave in season one?
With all the talk about black and white, I didn't see anyone mention the black and white stones which were found with the Adam & Eve skeletons.
Just rewatched it and noticed that the knife that Jacob used to cut the fish in the first scene was the same knife in the cabin wall holding the tapestry of the statue.
If it had been Esau using the cabin, why would he leave directions/instructions as to where to find Jacob? Using his own knife?
Confused ...
WOW what a finale.
The Non-Locke reveal was as suprising as any twist I've ever seen...I still think real Locke will be a part of Season 6. In Walt's words:
"I've been having dreams about you. You were on the Island, wearing a suit, and there are people all around you. They wanted to hurt you, John. "
Maybe the real Locke will come back to life? His body is still in the suit, and there are plenty of people around. So much for them to get through in 17 episodes.
8 months. 8 goddamn months. I hate this so much.
Based on the conversation between Jacob and "Esau," I got the sense that this has all happened before, the whole of the island's histopry or maybe even the whole of history, and that Jacob and Esau have been going through it all each time, like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. Did anyone else get a Groundhog Day vibe from this?
Thanks to whoever pointed out that in the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, it is definitely not clear that one of them is "good" and the other "evil", and if I had to choose one, it would be Jacob who is the evil one. That story is about God's fantastic love for Jacob - who imo represents the rest of fallen humanity - and God's eternal patience in guiding us back to sensibility, to love, to Him. Esau doesn't get much treatment from God, because he doesn't need it.
That said, I don't know that I see very much of a correlation to what we're seeing now in Lost. They do, however, seem to be playing a lot on the good vs. evil, black vs. white themes.
There are some great observations here - you are a sharp group, and I'm glad that others noticed some of the things I did.
I thought the knife in the cabin wall was akin to leaving a note on the fridge.
"Heading out to hang at the giant foot. Also, we're out of milk. Peace.
- Jake"
Something no one else has mentioned, thought I'd throw it out there:
When Jacob collapses after being stabbed, he whispers "they're coming..." essentially just as Juliet knocks the nuke into 'exploding.' It's possible it could refer to the Ajira/Others just outside the statue, BUT, considering the pains Jacob went through across time to touch Jack & Co., I think he is referring to them. With the white light, they are probably being transported to that timeline, and Jacobs hopes to 'resolve' the conflict or at least to help him through this particular ordeal.
Also, I don't think anyone pointed out that those Jacob visited in past lives were the ones written on the season 2 list: Jack, Kate, James, Hurley. I think there is a connection there, though maybe minor. I'm still trying to figure out why he would have visited Sayid and Locke. Especially Locke, considering he seems to be quite dead (AND HOW SAD THAT MAKES ME, he was my favourite character -- sad that he's "gone," sad that the writers finally settled on pathetic instead of just lost and confused).
Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned this: What did Bram and Ilana mean when they suggested Lapidus might be a "candidate"? As Lapidus asked, a candidate for what? A human sacrifice? A new leader? Paris Hilton's new best friend?
Maybe just a candidate for their club, the "What lies in the shadow of the statue" Association? They tried to recruit Miles for the club.
Anyone have a better idea?
The finale was one of the best episodes they have ever had.
The construction of it was phenomenal. There were so many storylines involved this episode, and it would have been too convoluted for any show but LOST. The fluidity in which the show jumped from storyline to storyline was masterful.
Jacob was great. Pat, Interesting that he went out of his way to physically touch the Oceanic Six. I guess we will find out next season the significance.
They handled the Bernard and Rose (and Vincent) storyline brilliantly. They couldn't keep them in every episode, and the explanation wasn't just deus ex machina. It fit their characters m.o. to have them abandon the group to "retire."
I loved Jin's remark that Jacob spoke excellent Korean. Over the years, Daniel Dae Kim (an American) has been oft-criticized for his Korean, and so it was a nice tip of the cap.
LOST has done a great job pulling back the camera to reveal larger plotlines at play with each passing season. If done poorly, it's a chap cop out. But this is done brilliantly on the show.
There is a lot of white/black symbolism running through the show with Jacob attributed to white and #2 to black. Everyone better grip that rug beneath them tightly, because there's no guarantee that Jacob is good.
The statue HAS to be Sobek. look at the depictions and read the history of it..
I can't belive no one else said this. When the show cuts to the white title screen and black "LOST," it then says "Destiny Comes." Also, there is black smoke around the letters. Smoke Monster will play a huge role in the final season... book it!
Just an FYI - Mark Pellegrino didn't pee on The Dude's rug; that would be Philip Moon aka Woo aka The non-housebroken Chinama...er, Asian-American. It's a shame, because that rug really tied the room together.
Also, If Man #2 is the Smoke monster, what was the rationale for destroying the pilot in the very beginning of the pilot episode?
Cinematically, it was for suspense, but in the context of the greater story, why was he taken?
I wouldn't assume that "Esau" isn't the smoke monster because of the way he reacted to Ben's admission that he was supposed to follow Locke's orders. Long con, or maybe just surprised Ben admitted it. Maybe they aren't the same thing, but that isn't definitive.
I still don't think that anything was changed in 1977, because I don't see how they could have. It would seemingly have to be through Desmond, and while I can see that changing what happens in the present (because maybe a Ben who didn't try and fail to kill Penny isn't so susceptible to Locke), I don't figure how it changes anything in the past.
The morning DJs I listen to are obsessed with Lost. Apparently, Man #2's name is Samuel. They were also theorizing that Samuel = The Devil and Jacob = God, but that can't be because everyone knows Ray Wise is *The* Devil :-)
From Lostpedia regarding Man #2
"The casting call described him as "Samuel. Any ethnicity, 40s-60s. A corporate raider looking to take over his next company. Powerful, devious and obtuse. He has a cunning intellect and a strong sense of danger. May lead to recurring. Looking for someone very interesting and very special for this role..." [1]
The actions of this individual closely resemble those of the "Un-Man", the demonic spirit controlling Professor Edward Weston in C.S. Lewis' planetary romance Perelandra. In the novel, the Un-Man entered an island planet by taking possession of a dead man, and did not take direct action, but rather worked through trying to persuade another to commit an evil act. This persuasion involved questioning the motivations of a being who had until then been considered an undisputed spiritual authority. "
- I agree with everyone else who doesn't understand the motivation to blow up the bomb, and all the other losties blind following of Jack. Why would hurley want to go back if he thought he was cursed? Miles was miserable with himself untill he found out his dad left them because he loved them... Kates going to go to jail - and that marshal was a jerk!... Idk why any of these people would even agree (much less want) to reset time. And the Love tri/quad is a REALLY weak motivation, especially for juliette, her part just felt like the writers didn't know what else to do. How can we al know that james loves juliette but she not see it herself?
Bernard and Rose are smart they dont want to go back because rose has cancer.
- I think the reason that everyone has a crush on Kate is because she always jumps on them. I dont know if any of you have watched season 1 recently, but i've made it to the 5th episode and so far she has tackled charlie to the ground, and sawyer, we all know about the juliette hand cuff fight, and i'm sure that she knocked jack down once maybe... she's brought it all on herself.
- oh since the island can move locations maybe a long time ago it was close to egypt. and they sailed there and claimed it as their land. then they built a giant statue and.. egypt does have a small sea on one side.
- scott J. i think you have the best theory so far about jacob and #2. I like it a lot. i'm going to go with that one. and they probably have other powers that we haven't seen yet...
- i also do not understand why everyone is so quick to resort to violence on this show. i can not say for sure, because it's never happened to me, but i don't think i'll try to shoot people just to guard some scientific research. And i don't plan on shooting a bunch of strangers who have done nothing to me (jack), only so i can blow up an island and go back in time because i screwed up so badly...
- Someone please tell me how the nuke bomb's blast can be contained enough to not destroy the whole island. or is that the point that it does destroy the whole island, not just the swan?
- And if the bomb actually resets time i'm going to be So frustrated. What a dynasty style cop-out!
- josh holloway should get an emmy for stealing this whole season!
The only thing i am going to add to this is that, none of us rally know anything. my bro was convinced that JACK WAS JACOB and even had a prtty good theory how that was possible, with supporting evidence. I thought that Locke might be jacob and that the statue was of Richard or Jacob or even Locke instead of some demon god or whatever.
Strangely enough, the cliffhanger isn't going to eat at me like "Locke in coffin" did last year. I just feel more sad that the real Locke is dead. I had wanted he and Jack to meet up and talk. Now, that can never happen.
What he said. Lots of great stuff here: dubbing Man #2 "Esau," Jacob touching everybody, backgammon, the inverted logo, etc. Wow, do I feel like a wet blanket for posting "Esau"'s real name. OTOH, time for the theorizing to begin on the name "Samuel" (starting with the meaning of the name, which could be either "His name is God" or "God has heard"). Also pulled this off another website about the name: Samuel was the last of the ruling judges in the Old Testament. He anointed Saul to be the first king of Israel, and later anointed David." Sometimes, though, I think Darlton is following a more Manichaeistic version of good/evil than a Christian one.
I also got a huge "Sledge Hammer" flashback at the end ("HAMMER!!!"). Wouldn't be surprised if Darlton was thinking of it, too.
I'm gonna miss Juliet and am not ashamed to say I cried when she went down the rabbit hole. Ugh. So unfair that we lose her and are stuck with Kate. Same with losing the "real" Locke (the way we lost the "real" Nathan on "Heroes"--though with "Star Trek" being a hit, I hope that means the end of Sylar!) Er, anyway...
Gotta say I didn't mind Jack so much this time, though. He's still a pill, but I liked that he had so much faith in Daniel.
What did Bram and Ilana mean when they suggested Lapidus might be a "candidate"? As Lapidus asked, a candidate for what? A human sacrifice? A new leader? Paris Hilton's new best friend?
Maybe just a candidate for their club, the "What lies in the shadow of the statue" Association? They tried to recruit Miles for the club.
Anyone have a better idea?A candidate to take Jacob's place (as his new corporeal form)?
@Steve, I think that Lostpedia is mixing up the casting info for a completely separate character with Man #2.
Does anyone read ancient Greek? The tapestry that Jacob was working on and that we later saw completed appears to have Greek writing on it, rather than Hieroglyphs. So we are talking about Ancient Egyptian culture post-Ptolemy I?
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2009/05/episodes-5x16-and-5x17-incident-parts-1.html
Dez.
Samuel isn't necessarily his name, just the name used for the casting call.
I'm sure Jacob's name wasn't used as Jacob for the casting call, because it would have leaked that Jacob was an actual person, etc.
MattB
Who knows? But the casting call description fits the need for Man #2. A corporate raider who is powerful, devious with a sense of danger?
Sounds like a cryptic description of Man #2. He is looking to kill Jacob and perhaps take over the island. He was looking and has devoloped a long con to kill Jacob, etc.
Seems right up Man #2's alley
B,
Again, according to Lostpedia regarding the Ancient Greek.
"Across the top of the tapestry is emblazoned a quote from Homer's Odyssey in upper case ancient Greek: ΘΞΟΙ ΤΟΣΑ ΔΟΙΞΝ ΟΣΑΦΡΞΣΙ ΣΗΣΙ ΜΞΝΟΙΝΑΖ. The original sentence, modified to lower case, is σοὶ δὲ θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς (transcribed as theoi tosa doien hosa phresi sêisi menoinais), belongs to Book 6, line 180 and means, "may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires". [1]
Another passage is woven into the middle of the tapestry. It can be only partly seen, but the passage in full reads, ΘΞΟΙ ΔΞ ΤΟΙ ΟΛΒΙΑ ΔΟΙΞΝ. The original sentence, modified to lowercase, is θεοὶ δέ τοι ὄλβια δοῖεν (transcribed as theoi de toi olbia doien), which means, "may the gods grant thee happiness". It can be found in several places in the Odyssey, e.g., Book 8, line 413 and Book 24, line 402. [2]
"
time for the theorizing to begin on the name "Samuel...............................................I don't know about everybody else but no theorizing for me until he's actually named on the show - until then he could be anybody.
I know having the bomb go off explains certain things, i.e. statue falling, pregnacy issues. When I was watching I got the impression that the flash we saw when Juliet hit the bomb was a timeflash. So maybe the bomb still went off, but I think we will start Season 6 with the characters thrown around near the Swan in present time. Dont know anything about Juliets acting career, as others as stated, this would allow her to be saved or in fact just die. But I think this is where we will see everyone come season 6, back in present time, and not on the airplane...
one thing that struck me--how did Jack suddenly become an ace shot? Now he's routinely picking off various Dharma guys with one-hand shots that don't even look like he's aiming. Did he spend some of his time in the real world training with Special Ops?
Here's another theory that I've had for some time now that finally gains some credence with the revelation that the book Jacob was reading is based on the works of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.
One of my all-time favorite sci-fi book series is "The Pliocene Exile" by Julian May also uses the works of Teilhard as the basis for the science of the series.
The series is one giant time loop spanning six million years. The main villain (during modern times) of the overall series goes back in time (six million years) and ultimately becomes the savior of the universe. He accomplishes a lot of this because on his second pass through time, he is manipulating events and making sure some things happen as he knows they must.
Where this applies to Lost and Jacob, I think we're seeing Jacob on a second pass (or more) through time. He knows all the events that actually happen, Groundhog Day-like, and what must happen to ensure that certain events occur. However, this time through, he's manipulating events in such a way that things CHANGE.
So everything that happens, including his own death, is part of the plan to change things up. Esau or Man#2 or Smokey, is not privy to any of the events that Jacob knows will occur, and he thinks he's in control.
I'm not sure what Jacob accomplished by allowing himself to be killed (and I think his comment to Ben pushing Ben over the edge was deliberate, and not just Jacob being a jerk), but it's part of his plan. The fact that it occurred at the same moment as the nuke flash will (according to Lost time travel rules) cause all the various times to come together.
Much like the end of season one, where they didn't have the time or budget to build what was going to be in the Hatch until season two, I think that's what we have now, as frustrating as it is.
My theory for Season Six is that we WILL show up back at LAX. I think the show starts with Jack's eye popping open, but this time he's seated on the plane as it is arriving at LAX, or maybe they go through some turbulence, but instead of the plane crashing, it weathers it okay then continues on. We quickly see that time is NOT reset fully. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, and Locke are all on the plane, but all have full memories of everything that happened on the island. Charlie, Shannon, Boone, etc, are all now alive again, but don't have any memory of what happened on the island, leading to some awkward, "Dude.. don't you remember me?" moments.
The war between Jacob and Esau will now be waged globally, with the climax coming back to the island one last time.
Should be epic.
Pretty much everything that has needed to be said about this episode has been addressed except for one small thing.
Recall in Season 1 Christian's body was mysteriously missing from his coffin. Since then we have assumed that the Smoke Monster/whoever was assuming his body has needed his physical body to impersonate him.
Now that we know Man #2 is imitating Locke even though Locke's physical body is being carried by Lapidus and co. So my question is: Does the Smoke Monster/Man #2 need the physical body to impersonate dead people or is Christian's missing body just another one of those Season 1 mysteries that will likely never be addressed?
It makes sense that Man #2 is the Smoke Monster, but I like to think that this little clue could mean that Man #2 and the smoke Monster are two different entities.
So it was Phillip Moon as Woo who peed on the dude's rug, the same Phillip Moon who played Lee on Deadwood, who so famously feuded with Mr. Wu, who then killed Lee in a raid, with Silas Adams at his side, who was played by Titus Welliver, who now has shown up as Man #2/Esau. It's all starting to make sense...
One other thing I enjoyed was thinking about what Sawyer wasn't telling Jack when he explained about not saving his parents - "And I got the chance to kill that sonuvabitch here on the island, which ain't gonna happen if you set off that bomb, Doc."
Oh, and since we got to see R/B/V, I'll move on to an even more obscure complaint, since we spent a lot of time with the 2007 Others - where's Cindy? (The flight attendant.) I know Richard said last week there were people at the temple, but did she have to be one of them?
Alan, I've been lurking on your blog for this entire season, and I have information about the statue - My wife did some research after seeing the statue from behind earlier in the season and discovered:
1) Taweret is the Egyptian goddess of pregnant women and protection in childbirth. Anubis is the embalmer and the watcher over the dead.
2) Taweret is always described as having the legs of a lionness, the body/head of a hippo, and back of a crocodile. She has short ears. Anubis is a jackal, with long pointed ears.
3) Taweret holds the Ankh (symbol of Life) in her right hand and the Sa (symbol of Protection) in her left. When standing, Anubis is usually holding the Ankh in his left hand and a staff in his right.
So my thoughts? Jughad needed to go off to ensure that events happen as they need to happen. Could it be that the explosion will be prevented from harming everyone by Taweret by dissipating it's blast and radiation through the use of an electromagnetic discharge every 108 minutes?
Is the statue there in 1977? Could that be what causes the statue to fall? Juliette helped deliver a baby in Darmaville earlier this season - Is Taweret "incapacitated" and unable to "protect in childbirth" 30 years later?
Guess we find out next year!
Was anyone else in disbelief when Jack, the DOCTOR, decided it was okay to leave a potentially dying shot Sayid to go talk with Sawyer for "5 minutes"????? I couldn't believe it...
if you read my earlier post Devin- nevermind - I misread yours
"Was anyone else in disbelief when Jack, the DOCTOR, decided it was okay to leave a potentially dying shot Sayid to go talk with Sawyer for "5 minutes"????? I couldn't believe it..."
You could make the case that because Jack believed that blowing up the nuke would return them all to the plane or, at a worst case scenario, they'd all die in the blast, it wouldn't matter what happened to Sayid.
I guess that big metal box was refrigerated otherwise wouldn't Locke's body start decomposing at some point?? It is a tropical island after all.
Not to be gross, but us fans seem to overlook a lot of these kind of details. I'm still not sure I buy Sayid running around the jungle with a bomb on his back while poor Artz died just trying to carry dynamite.
For a techy show, sometimes we are asked to ignore science and logic. We are asked to accept a lot based on "blind faith."
It's my understanding that Jacob was never in that cabin and it was Man #2 the entire time. He was the one who said "help me" to Locke. He took on Christian's body to make them move the island. He's been manipulating Locke since he's been on the island - the ultimate lost soul just searching for a purpose in life, a calling. He escaped from the cabin and took form in Locke's body. My question is how did Jacob lose track of Locke? He appeared to revive him when he fell out the window. Once he got to the island how did Man #2 get control of him? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys now? Are Ben and Widmore on the same side without knowing it or is one with Jacob and one with Man #2? Just wanted to point out (as it's been pointed out on other sites) that the fish Jacob was cooking was a red herring. Possibly an important clue?
A few thoughts... as I still try to digest the episode...
OK we all safely assume that Man #2 possesses Locke and tells Ricahrd to tell real Locke that he must die and bring everyone back.
But it's JACOB who sets everything in motion for these people to return to the island in the first place.
It seems as both Jacob and Man #2 want/need the O6 on the island.
Bwah, I just wanted to quote from the NYMag review:
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/lost_season_finale_our_left_foot.html
"Are we to believe that Kate Austin is the valentine around which the Lost Man Universe revolves? REALLY?"
It can't be Tawaret... The head was clearly that of a crocodile.
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/b2f7bfcd122b2d8175389d2382287a2c
Plus the statue is very skinny and doesn't look pregnant.
but, for all we know, it could be a new god, a combination god that LOST made up
We only see flashbacks of Jacob visitng the Oceanic Six. But I wonder if Jacobly actually visited everyone on Flight 815. The characters were all connected, and so I wonder if Jacob visited Boone, Shannon, Charlie, Libby, et al.
Perhaps we see him visit them next season and they may be back on the show. Who knows?
Also, Richard tells Jack he only left the island three times. He went to see John twice, and the third time was when he was at the hospital where Juliet worked.
This leads me to believe that Juliet plays a stronger role than I initially thought... so I think the white light was her detonating the bomb. 2000-ish Richard had to go visit Juliet to ensure she went to the island to detonate the bomb in 1977
"I'm sure Jacob's name wasn't used as Jacob for the casting call,"
According to Lostpedia, the casting call gave his name as 'Jason,' not Jacob.
About that cabin... Did we see one of Losties disrupt the circle of ash around it earlier? Seems familiar, but I can't exactly recall. Hurley, Locke, Ben... we've seen them all go to the cabin. Could it be that the ash was meant to keep someone in, or keep someone out? Like, was Man #2 locked in there by Jacob using the circle of ash? Did Jacob use the circle to keep man #2 out? Ilana's group, many have been assuming, are there to serve Jacob-- but what if they, like poor dead Locke, were just saps, tricked into serving Man #2 instead? So when they thought they were going to the cabin to see Jacob, they were actually being sent to release man #2, not knowing it had actually already happened? Or was this cabin really was a refuge for Jacob, and he had to retreat to his statue fortress after the circle was broken?
I'm hoping this at least gets touched upon, in some way. In the opening scene, it seemed like man #2 was captive to Jacob. Perhaps he was, and later Jacob relegated him to sticking to the cabin. Then, the Losties come, through Jacob's influence, as shown tonight. They release Man #2, who had been asking Locke to help him. That would mean Man #2's influence on the Island, and the show as a whole, only goes back as far as season 3, at best. Of course, if we're assuming that Man #2 is behind a lot of the Ghostie Losties, this would be kinda wrong in ways. Unless Jacob also had been doing that? Or maybe Jacob was trapped in the cabin? I just want to see where they go with that...
I guess that big metal box was refrigerated otherwise wouldn't Locke's body start decomposing at some point?? It is a tropical island after all.
Not to be gross, but us fans seem to overlook a lot of these kind of details. I'm still not sure I buy Sayid running around the jungle with a bomb on his back while poor Artz died just trying to carry dynamite.
For a techy show, sometimes we are asked to ignore science and logic. We are asked to accept a lot based on "blind faith."First, assuming Locke's body was embalmed (which, of course, would make it even more likely for him to have "revived", which we now assume he did not), I'm thinking it could last two or three days on the island without showing MAJOR signs of decomp. Plus, maybe the islands healing powers keep corpses fresh longer.
As for the bomb vs the dynamite, nuclear material doesn't become more volatile like dynamite does. The way they dealt with the dynamite was scientifically plausible; I know very little about nuclear technology (ie I'm not sure they could have carried around the core to a nuclear bomb and not have been pretty quickly irradiated) but nuclear material is not inherently unstable with regards to jarring; if you had a plutonium rod and dropped it it wouldn't create a nuclear blast, it takes some sort of process to make that happen. Now Sayid rigged some kind of shock-sensitive switch to the bomb, but it still wouldn't be unstable like the dynamite was after dozens / hundreds of years. That said, I don't know that I could run so casually with a nuclear bomb strapped to my back.
As for everyone thinking that the bomb explains how the statue got messed up, I don't think so; Ben says it was "like that when I got here", and he was there in the 70's as a child and presumably saw that part of the island. That's before the Incident.
Is it just me or does anyone else have an image of the last scene of LOST being Jack and Sawyer sitting on the beach, watching a vessel approach, while Sawyer tells Jack how much he wants to kill him?
Also, someone asked why a nuclear explosion wouldn't have destroyed the whole island. Keep in mind nuclear explosions, while potentially very powerful, DO have degrees of powerfulness. Atomic bombs have been tested on American soil, out in the desert, and it didn't destroy the entirety of America :) So one would assume that this bomb is a) not powerful enough to destroy the island and b) its effects might be somehow neutralized or contained by the electromagnetic properties of the island (despite the fact that electromagnetism and nuclear power are not really related).
Beyond the first 167 comments, more things I'm still hazy about:
- Juliet's flipflop. Considering how she was running interference for Ben at one point, she strikes me as continuing to be a "double agent" ... maybe she finally flipped back the other way in the love/Sawyer reveal. But for which side?
- The nosebleeds, constants, variables ... were Bernard and Rose impacted by it all? Will there be more nosebleeds and time sickness? That seemed such an integral element to people's length of time on the island earlier this season.
- Miles and listening to dead people. This must be important - maybe he will be getting messages from Jacob?
Anyway ... great way to spend the summer. And fall.
It was the Chinaman who peed on the Dude's rug...but the Chinaman is no the issue here.
Shame on the rest of the commenters for not picking that up til now.Er, some of us aren't fans of that movie, though.
I can leave it up to the Latin scholars to decide (as I'm clearly ignorant on that subject), but it sounded like Ilana said Ri-CAR-dose, not Ri-CAR-dus.And Richard said the latter (-dus), so I'm gonna go with him and his non-accent vs. Ilana's accent :-)
it could refer to the Ajira/Others just outside the statue, BUT, considering the pains Jacob went through across time to touch Jack & Co., I think he is referring to them. That was my first thought, that Jack & Co. were on their way back to the future (unfortunately, not in a DeLorean).
Also, it's possible the blast can reset time, but with only minor changes so that SamueLocke and co. are still doing what they're doing. Perhaps we'll jump back to the future and find out it rains donuts or that people have lizard tongues, yet everything else is the same.
Samuel isn't necessarily his name, just the name used for the casting call.I'm just going by what the DJs were talking about and, given that they interviewed J.J. Abrams right after and he didn't contradict them, I think they're on to something. Of course, he also didn't talk too much about it since he doesn't want to influence what Darlton do.
@Bryan--Man #2's not been named Esau either, yet people are going to town with that theory, so there ya go.
As one of the people who started it, I'm not calling him "Esau" because I really think they're the biblical brothers, but it's convenient and you have to call him something.
Although I've also people calling him UnLocke, and that's not bad either.
I'm just going by what the DJs were talking about and, given that they interviewed J.J. Abrams right after and he didn't contradict them, I think they're on to something.
Keep in mind, again, that J.J. has nothing to do with the show anymore, other than the fact that his production company still makes it. He might honestly not know what the guy's name is.
And, like Devin says, some of us are using Esau just because it's amusing, and not because we assume that's what Titus Welliver's character was actually called.
"@Bryan--Man #2's not been named Esau either, yet people are going to town with that theory, so there ya go."
Oh I know Dez - and I'm not going with that either. I'm just saying my little brain's got enough to speculate on until Jan without throwing that that kind of speculation in.
Un-Locke... not bad, I have read other comments that called him Flocke (fake locke)... I'm partial to both.
Swear I've read the whole thing, but I've read so many different Lost threads today that I can't remember where it came from. So apologies if this has been posted. The items Hurley got back when leaving jail (candy, cash, pen) were the same items Jacob gave Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.
"I can leave it up to the Latin scholars to decide (as I'm clearly ignorant on that subject), but it sounded like Ilana said Ri-CAR-dose, not Ri-CAR-dus."
I am pretty sure Ricardos would be a possible name in Latin (it's been a while) but Ricardus is much more likely. Plus, I believe when Julliette and 1950 Widmore were talking in Latin, they clearly said Ricardus.
Everybody seems to think that Jack was willing to blow up a bunch of people to stop the plane from crashing, but I never got that impression. Faraday said that setting off the bomb was suppose to negate the energy from the pocket. I always just thought that the two energies (Jughead and Swan electromagnetism) would just cancel each other out, not blow everyone up and certainly not blow apart the statue, which has to be at least as far away as Dharmaville (which we know to be still standing).
My current theory is that Juliet exploding Jughead (which it seems she did) will not negate all the energy of the pocket, like Faraday theorized, but it will cancel out enough for the Dharma people to get a handle on it and set up the 108 minutes computer. So while not preventing or causing the Incident, Jack still inadvertently sets the wheels in motion for the crash of 815, holding true to "whatever happened, happened."
The two energies mingling will also, of course (as many have theorized for weeks), send anyone in the vicinity to the present (2007), which seems to only include our intrepid Losties (minus Rose, Bernard, and Vincent). Whether Sayid and/or Juliet survive their injuries after jumping to the present remains to be seen. If I had to pick one, I'd think Sayid, seeing how Juliet would most likely be transported to the future into a solid piece of ground, much like what almost happened to Locke when he was climbing down the well.
Here's a question - where is Richard in 1977? Because when he meets up with everyone in 2007, he says "I saw them all die." He wasn't at the Swan when the Incident happened, so when did he think he saw everyone die?
Great comments, all, but there is one thing no one else has mentioned: the reversal of Jack' story.
In the pilot, Jack tells the count to 5 story. But in the story, he is the one who stops himself and gives himself only 5 seconds to panic before stepping up and doing what needs to be done. What we see is the opposite: if not for Christian, that lady is a paraplegic. Jack's leadership cred is based on a lie.
The people on this show who hold themselves out as leaders (Jack, Locke, Ben, Horace, Widmore) all fail. Perhaps the reason history keeps repeating itself, according to Esau, is that the wrong people are playing the game. Perhaps the key to the island compassion (say in the form of Sun and Jin or Des and Penny, or Hurley) rather than ambition.
My word verification is "watizon." Nothing as good as this for seven months.
I'm restarting the series this weekend. Three eps a week should get me through to January.
the surgery Jack performed was on his future wife, yeah?
So Jacob was the push that Jack needed to save the woman that became his wife. Big event... I wonder where else that leads.
After reading 179 comments, I feel like I just read a book (or at least a novella). Some things I think I didn't see mentioned:
- Jacob's paying off Kate's debt in the flashback might have actually led to Kate's life of crime. If Jacob doesn't show up, Kate gets in trouble at an early age and might have taught her a lesson. The lesson that she gets from Jacob is "Do what you want, Kate, and there will be someone to always get you out of trouble."
- Smokey could be Esau (or vice versa). Remember when Esau-as-Locke takes Ben to the temple. Ben falls in the whole, Locke leaves, the smoke monster appears, appears again as Alex, Smokey leaves, then Locke shows up again. (i.e. have you ever seen Esau-as-Locke and Smokey in the same room together?)
- OR maybe the blast of the nuke makes Juliet Smokey...all microscopic bits bound together by the electromagnetism from the swan site.
Thoughts from the all you smart folks?
Bobman wrote:
>>Here's a question - where is Richard in 1977? Because when he meets up with everyone in 2007, he says "I saw them all die." He wasn't at the Swan when the Incident happened, so when did he think he saw everyone die?>>
Last we saw Richard in 1977, he had hit Ellie in the head and let Jack and Sayid go do what they needed to do.
When did he think he saw them all die? Presumably, at some point in the future (of the show)--if we believe Richard, they aren't gone yet, as of the end of the episode we just saw.
Sorry Adam Conrad but I believe that you are mistaken as to the identity of the Egyptian statue figure. Tawaret most commonly has the body of a hippo, something clearly which the statue does not. A far more likely candidate would be Sobek.
Here is the wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
Specifically I want to point out the following quote
"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part. In this way, he was seen as a more primal god, eventually becoming regarded as an avatar of the primal god Amun, who at that time was considered the chief god."
Now doesn't that remind you a little of what seems to be happening on the Island, particularly concerning the work that Jacob would appear to be doing?
Also I fully expect the original Locke to come back to life. Just a hunch.
Maybe Richard saw the explosion/white light and was talking about that as "seeing them all die?"
On the other hand: Why would the 815ers die when we know that Chang and Radzinsky, who were in the general vicinity of the explosion, survived -- assuming that nothing has changed or can change?
Jin's English Tutor is totally right about the count to 5 story. I've seen the pilot about 50 times and the differences between Jack's version as originally told to Kate and what actually happened as seen in this finale were striking. But I disagree with JET's conclusion. I think Christian did in fact make Jack a better leader and better doctor, and by the time Christian dies in 2004 Jack has realized that. But he never gets to tell dad.... yet.
Also agree with Bryan and others that there is much more to Jack's motivation for blowing the bomb than just another shot with Kate. I suspect the writers felt they needed a clear motivation the audience could buy for the sake of this episode. But we know Jack's journey back to the island and his feeling that he is destined to do something important there are all about his dad, not Kate. The eventual confrontation between Jack and Christian is the climax this show has been building towards since the beginning. Every other character and major story on this show is related somehow to Jack/Christian. All roads lead there. Jack is in denial about why he really went back, and he's willing to blow up a nuclear bomb to avoid coming face to face with dead Daddy. But its coming.
Thanks to the person who made the red herring comment, thats very interesting. There was definitely some major symbolism with the fish that I couldn't fully grasp the meaning of: the fish got too close to the island and fell in Jacob's trap, he offered to split it with Man#2, but #2 declines and would rather kill Jacob. I can't decide what the fish represents. But I feel that, like the fish, Jacob is willing to share the island with #2. But #2 won't share, he only wants to kill Jacob and have the island and whatever power it holds all for himself.
Lastly, I just want to say that the incident can't send Jack and company back to the future yet. They have more to do there: specifically, Hurley is going to leave the numbers transmission for Leonard to hear (thanks to several commenters on this board who convinced me it was Hurley's voice repeating the numbers as heard by the French team in "This Place is Death."). Also, I think 1977 version of Richard will see or think he sees, Jin and others die. There's got to be more story to tell before they get back to the present.
A few random thoughts apart from the main narrative:
2 men on the beach presumable in the mid 1800's time of the Black Rock wearing home spun and speaking modern day English with American accents. Where did they come from originally?
Charlotte and Jacob unexplicably fluent in Korean and Jin and Sun from Korea - what's the connection?
The doctors Jack and Juliette and the ever nurselike Kate all ignored Sayid's wounds once the magic bus stopped.
Are all the shootouts just sci-fi nerdy stuff? It bothered me to see a bunch of Dharma scientists get murdered - after all they are scientists and Chang was kinda open to the Losties having knowledge they didn't - no attempt to send in Miles and talk for a moment or two?
All the characters on Lost make getting beat up a fairly minor occurence - don't even need ice to slow swelling - no black eyes, no missing teeth, no internal bleeding. Again, is that just fantasy of guys wishing they could beat up someone who pissed them off?
As a reminder, take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. It is not the most reliable source and those entries might have been edited by Lost fans. That description of Sobek doesn't sound quite like the one I read this morning...
I'm getting a "Pilgrim's Progress" feeling now but peppered with Buddhist philosophy.
@Greg: Why did Richard tell Sun that he saw Jin et al. die when he in fact didn’t (unless that is yet to come, but I wouldn’t count on it)?Perhaps he sees them at the site of the Incident and assumes they're dead when they disappear. Which brings an annoyance I won't detail at how badly they portray the use of the H-bomb, and one wonders how any of them could survive an explosion. I guess we are to presume that the energy source at the swan absorbs the blast.
@hbo2003: My guess is that Charlie's guitar is in the guitar case . . . God only knows what it will mean next season but I bet it will be used.I thought maybe the losties would play "All Along the Watchtower" on it and then be transported back to present day earth but then the first question above reminded me that Ricardo saw them die. Of course, they could have been playing *really badly*.
-anonymoose
Alabaster: Loved your theory to all this. Agree to most of it. I can't really wrap my head around the Smokey situation though, especially since Man #2 in Locke seemed so surprised with Ben's talk about what Dead!Alex told him.
Loved all your comments, and to add a bit more timeline specific post, here's something (including who messed up that ash that made Man #2 escape in the first place, as one poster asked about.)
Season 3, ep 19: Man #2 says "Help Me" to Locke. Game started.
Season 4, ep 1: Now, this may be an error in timeline, I'm not completely sure, but when Hurley stumbled on to the cabin, didn't he mess up the ash? Ta da! Man #2 can suddenly get out! In same cabin Hurley sees Christian in the chair, and Man #2 peering out the window making Hurley run off (maybe he messed up the ash when he ran off?).
Now, had we seen Dead!Christian on the island previous to this? Quick look at IMDB and he has only been in Jack, Sawyer and Claire flashbacks (except season 3 finale, but that would be years after Hurley messed that ash up). So somehow that body ended up in the cabin (maybe Smokey carried him there?), and now that said ashes are a mess, Man #2 can use Dead!Christian at his disposal.
Season 4, ep 10: First mission to cross off list - get Special!Aaron off island. Method: Lure mama Claire (so so very convenient with Dead!Christian laying around) away from her kid. She comes with him to the cabin and cast some sort of spell on her and/or give her some marujana.
Season 4, ep 11: When is Locke gonna show up? Come on! Man #2 is anxiously waiting for his release (snark). Locke enters, and we all know what happens here. Plan is on a roll!
Season 4, ep 14: Man #2, in Christians body, tell Michael to blow himself and the boat up. Not sure why though, it would've blown up anyway. Maybe he just wanted a change of scenery.
Later in the ep, he shows up as an apparition in Kate's house. Now as Claire. Oh dear, does this mean Claire's dead? I just thought of this. But then again, she showed up in a dream, so maybe there's a being-dead-loophole there.
Season 5, ep 5: Last encounter with Locke. Gives him one last push.
Season 5:, ep 9: Shows up in the barracks to greet Sun and Lapidus (Locke was NOT present here, so he hasn't been in two places at once.) and tells Sun she has a long road ahead. Again, not sure why, since neither she or Lapidus did anything of use on the island after this. Maybe now you're thinking, but how could he be Locke and Christian at the same time? They might not have been in the same room, but Locke was still walking around. Well, you see, Locke wasn't in the episode, so he could have easily sneaked behind a bush, dumped Dead!Locke and inhabited Dead!Christian for a couple of minutes.
So yes, that was the last we saw of Man #2 (in a body outside of Locke's that is).
About Smokey I feel really ambigous. Up until Hurley messed up those ashes, Man #2 hadn't appeared (apart from that second in Man Behind The Curtain"), and Man #2 in Dead!Locke (this is getting tiresome...) in the finale, again, seemed genuily surprised when Ben told him about his Dead!Alex encounted. Maybe Smokey just didn't know that Man #2 was walking around, and was still hoping for Locke. It would make sense Smokey playing for Team Jacob before hand, messing Cindy, Rousseu's teams heads up, etc, so that they would become others. And Yemi could clearly walk and talk as much as he wanted. Why did Man #2 really need to get out if he could just ask Smokey to walk and talk here and there as much as he wanted to?
For what it's worth, the closed-captioning spelled it "Ricardus," not "Ricardos."
I'm really struggling to put together a timeline where all of these pieces fit together. Probably don't have enough information yet, but it seems like both Jacob & Esau wanted this series of events to happen, as well as Widmore, Eloise and Richard.
The day after, I'm having a similar struggle as others. I agree that if everyone is a pawn in Jacob & Esau's revenge game, it does cheapen the whole story. But I also trust that Darlton knows that and have a satisfying ending in mind.
Also, as a huge Locke fan, I'm not thrilled about him actually being dead. Seems like his whole journey was in vain, and he deserved better than that. It's been fun watching Terry O'Quinn these last several weeks, and I'll continue to enjoy his work, but I'll feel cheated if the real Locke, who seemed to be the show's heart and soul in the beginning, meant so little in the end.
So Bernard & Rose have been living in the woods? In a shack?
Could they be living in Jacob's shack? Is it Jacob's shack yet?
HEY! THIS IS TV! IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE MAGICAL.
WHO GIVES A GORRAM IF SOMEONE GETS PUNCHED AND WE DON'T SEE THE BRUISING? DO WE NEED TO SEE THEM URINATE AND SHIT AS WELL?
STOP FOCUSING ON STUPID CRAP.
STOP THINKING SO MUCH.
ENJOY THE RIDE.
"They're coming back"
The Cylon Centurions who went off in space?
I don't remember how old the skeletal couple were who were found in Season 1. Could they be the remains of Rose and Bernard?
Dave S
I'm the complete opposite. I never really liked Locke, and most episodes that featured him bored me a little bit. I just didn't like the character. But, I have loved Locke the last few weeks, and I will be very excited if he stays in this evil role next season.
richard saw a bright light and then he never saw the 815'ers again. so he had to assume they were dead
What - if anything - do we make of the fact that Man#2 replied, "I already ate" when Jacob asked him if he was hungry?
I'm not sure if anyone thought that The Black Pearl's denizens were the first ones to inhabit the island but by the conversation on the beach, it seems like it's been going on for quite awhile.
>> Anonymous Anonymous said...
HEY! THIS IS TV! IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE MAGICAL.
>> WHO GIVES A GORRAM IF SOMEONE GETS PUNCHED AND WE DON'T SEE THE BRUISING? DO WE NEED TO SEE THEM URINATE AND SHIT AS WELL?
>> STOP FOCUSING ON STUPID CRAP.
STOP THINKING SO MUCH.
ENJOY THE RIDE.
Umm.. yeah, thanks for that... so anyway, back to our discussion.
I want to follow up on my earlier "Pliocene Exile" (PE) theory with a couple of more similarities. PE had a major character (the villain/hero of the story) called Abaddon.
Also, the other villain was a disembodied spirit that took over the bodies of some of the other characters, causing massive, manipulative destruction.
Also, there was a one-way portal (a time portal, rather than the Island-Tunisia portal) that dumped people out in the same spot each time.
So as a jump in to defend Jack (and as such, the writers...). Everyone is reacting to Jack as if he is "setting off a nuclear bomb 'cause his girlfriend dumped him", which isn't what Jack was/is doing. Jack is acting on faith (as if, ya know, he was Locke) that Fariday is correct, and that setting off the bomb resets history. Which, along with resetting Jack and Kate, it saves lots and lots of lives (including, ya know, Locke) and puts the world back where it should theoretically be. So yeah, maybe one of Jack's motivations is his failed relationship with Kate. But even then, he is also (as he mentioned previously) setting right what once went wrong. He isn't setting off a bomb and killing people. He is setting off a bomb and resetting the universe. At least that is what he believes will happen. Which is why he is doing what he is doing. He isn't setting off a nuclear bomb 'cause his girlfriend dumped him.
As an aside, the only part of the episode which I had a problem with (and it was only a minor, production problem) was that Juliette's flashback? Didn't remotely look like it was supposed to be in the past. At all. Elizabeth Mitchell is about the same age as me. Meaning that her flashback took place around, say, 1982, give or take. And even if they had her playing 10 years younger than she is, it didn't even look like 1992. Her parents, and her, didn't look even a little bit like they were in 1982 or whatever. They had 2009 hair. 2009 clothes. In a 2009 living room. It is as if the set designers completely forgot that the flashback was supposed to be in the past at some point.
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