Thursday, January 31, 2008

Lost, "The Beginning of the End": Cannonball!

Spoilers for the "Lost" season premiere coming up just as soon as I work on my jump shot...

"I don't think we did the right thing, Jack. I think it wants us to come back, and it's going to do everything it can..."

What. The. Hell. Is going on here? And why am I so happy right now?

Okay, well the second answer's obvious. I'm happy because that episode both rocked and rolled (and may have rapped at one point, too).

And the first question relates to the second. I'm also happy because, between "Through the Looking Glass" and now "Beginning of the End," I care again not only about the "Lost" characters, but about the mysteries. Lindelof and Cuse have sucked me back in. I'm racking my brain, trying to remember whether Dave ever seemed to touch Hurley or not (which applies to the appearance of "Charlie," about which I'll get back to). I genuinely care about the identities of the other half of the Oceanic Six. For cryin' out loud, I put my screener DVD into three different computers to try to make screen captures of a few shots in Jacob's cabin (a profile of Jacob in the rocking chair, and the face in the window) and got suitably freaked out when the disc would always freeze up at the exact moment Hurley arrived at the cabin, even though the scene played just fine in a standard DVD player. (It's like the disc didn't want me to properly analyze it! Okay. Now I'm just nuts.)

Considering the number of times over the years where I've called those producers con man playing a very expensive game of three-card monte, I suppose that makes me a sucker. But if so, I'm a very happy sucker, because the show was once again so bloody entertaining that I don't really care if I'm getting played once again. Make 'em this good, and I'd be okay with the final episode of the series revealing that the entire island was a dream that Hurley had while waiting for his onion rings at a Jersey ice cream parlor.

And speaking of Hurley, he's at the top of my list of reasons why the start of this season feels so much stronger than the same period last season. I got into a lot of this in today's column, but now I can expand on it with some episode-specific material.

Last year, we started off with bullying, obnoxious, stubborn to a lethal fault Jack, whose refusal to do the sensible thing at every single turn symbolized a season in which too little happened for far too long. Now we open with a spotlight on Hurley, the closest thing the show has to a fan surrogate. He's the guy who asks the right questions (even if he doesn't always get answers to them), cares about people's feelings, etc., etc. And not only was it a Hurley spotlight, it was an episode in which he and Jack are at cross-purposes, and in which Hurley, up until the final scene in the mental hospital gym (and maybe even there) is depicted as right about virtually everything while Jack keeps being wrong about everything.

Jack refuses to heed any warnings about the freighter, refuses to listen to Kate's concerns about where Naomi got to or the false blood trail, refuses to stray even one iota from the path he set for himself late last season. Hurley, meanwhile, believes Charlie's message (and is also the only guy on the beach who thinks to ask Desmond what happened to ol' Hoodie), throws the walkie-talkie in the ocean so everyone will stop bickering and start moving, recognizes that it's his place to tell Claire about Charlie, and convinces at least some people that Jack might be leading them to their death. (If he wasn't throwing in with Locke, he probably would have gotten even more converts, as Rose made clear when she refused to go with "that man.") And I don't think it's a coincidence that in the basketball scene, Hurley makes every shot while Jack keeps missing.

Now, Hurley's apology to Jack about going with Locke could undercut that, and maybe I'm being just as obstinate as Jack in refusing to acknowledge that. But I think there's a difference between being wrong about going with Locke (selfish, destructive island zealot) and being wrong about steering clear of the people on the freighter. It's very possible that what Hurley's saying is that he should have stayed with Jack and tried to convince him that the freighter people were bad. But I guess we'll find out down the road.

Before we get to analyzing the various questions raised by this episode, some other things that I felt "Beginning of the End" got so very, very right:
  • The coincidences are used as more than coincidences. I got bored with playing that game where you try to figure out whether certain guest stars had appeared in previous characters' flashbacks, but when Ana-Lucia's ex-partner Mike turned up as Hurley's interrogator, it was to serve a bigger purpose. When he asks Hurley about Ana-Lucia and Hurley denies ever knowing her, that makes it clear just how much the Oceanic Six have been lying to the world about what happened on the island.
  • They focused on the emotions of the moment. Hurley and Bernard's conversation on the beach about the lottery, bad luck and cannonballing goes high on my list of favorite "Lost" scenes ever. It was just a beautiful mixture of joy, wistfulness, humor and (because we know that Hurley's about to find out Charlie's dead, and that Hurley is going to be very unhappy after he's "rescued") ironic regret. They also didn't gloss over anybody's response to Charlie's death, and the return of the Oceanic 815 cockpit (is this the first time we've seen it since the pilot?) was a lovely reminder of how much everyone, including Charlie, has been through. Sawyer got to have a nice moment (for Sawyer) where he offered to hang back with Hurley on the walk, and they were even willing to take Jack to a place where he tried to shoot Locke in the face (and would have succeeded if the gun was still loaded).
  • They got almost everyone involved. Some people got shorter shrift than others (notably, as usual, Jin and Sun), but everybody got a little bit of face time, as opposed to those early episodes last year that were about nothing but Jack, Kate, Sawyer and The Others. In addition, the episode did a good job of hitting or mentioning as many island landmarks as possible: the beach, the cockpit, the radio tower, Jacob's cabin and The Others' compound. It feels like everyone and everything are connected again, which, even if there still isn't a master plan, creates the illusion of one.
  • The flashforwards are a vast improvement over the flashbacks. This was already obvious with "Through the Looking Glass," and it continues to be the case here. The flashbacks (save for characters when they're brand-new to the show) had long since stopped offering anything illuminating, and were all about adhering to a formula and slowing down the pace of the present-day storytelling. The flashforwards, on the other hand, add a whole new layer to the mysteries, and to the plotting, and I look forward to seeing how events on the island fulfill things we've seen in the future. The producers aren't completely done with flashbacks (we're going to get some backstory on some of the freighter people, and I imagine there's lots more to be told about Ben's time on the island), but now they'll be used when they're necessary, and not just as a stylistic crutch.
There's more I could talk about -- Jack's wink at Ben, Ben's hilarious "Tell them she's getting a really big bundle of firewood," Sayid calling out Locke for blowing up the sub -- but I think most of us can agree about the level of awesome and the reasons for it, so let's move on to some specific questions raised by the episode:
  • Who the hell are the Oceanic Six? Other than Jack, Kate and Hurley, I mean. Unless the producers plan to do nothing but flashforwards for those three characters, we're eventually going to have to find out who the other three are. Based on Hurley's presence in the group, we can't even rule out the people who went with Locke -- or even Locke himself, for that matter, though I can't imagine him agreeing to leave the island, let alone going along with whatever lie the Six cooked up about themselves and the fates of those left behind. And why are they lying? (Also, while Jack's line about growing a beard establishes this flashforward as taking place before the one in "Looking Glass," I think we can rule out Hurley as the guy in the coffin. It was a very average-sized coffin, and people liked Hurley too much for his funeral to be unattended.)
  • Who are "they" and what is "it"? I'm assuming that "they" (referenced by Charlie, Hurley and Matthew Abbadon, the alleged Oceanic representative played by Lance Reddick from "The Wire") are the surviving lostaways who for some reason couldn't/didn't join the Six in their return to civilization. Is "it" (see the quote at the top of this post) the island, the monster, or something else? Are we supposed to think that the island has sentience? And speaking of Mr. Abbadon...
  • Who the hell is Matthew Abbadon? Wikipedia says that "Abadon" is "chief of the demons of the seventh hierarchy." If he doesn't represent Oceanic, who does he represent, and why does he care so much about the whereabouts of the other lostaways?
  • Charlie: ghost, figment or something else? Again, can someone tell me whether Dave ever physically touched Hurley, either in the mental hospital or on the island? When you're dealing with a character with a history of hallucinations, on a show where characters either return from the dead or appear to, who's to say what's real and what isn't? Charlie could somehow actually be alive, making his getaway while Hurley had his eyes screwed shut (in much the way Abbadon bailed from the game room while Hurley was yelling for the orderlies), but I'm thinking he's gone on to his reward.
  • Who's the other guy in Jacob's cabin? Like I said, I tried and failed to make screencaps of this scene. On my 42-inch TV, Jacob didn't look exactly like I remembered him from the captures that the Lost Easter Eggs blog did last season. And since Jacob was in his rocking chair the whole time, who the hell was looking out at Hurley? Easter Eggs also did a capture of a random close-up of someone's eye during that earlier scene, but the lighting makes it hard to tell if it's the same one in the window here. I don't think it's Locke, and we know the whereabouts of everyone else, so who?
One final note: for those who want to hear me talk even more about the premiere (and maybe hint at next week's episode), I'll be on NPR's "The Bryant Park Project" tomorrow morning at 7:50 a.m. Eastern. (If you're not up that early, each episode's available as a podcast.)

What did everybody else think?

164 comments:

SJ said...

Hey it was Daniels! Seems like the Lost guys are big fans of The Wire...they have used other actors of the show too before (not on Lost though).

Ok so I stopped watching Lost at the end of season 2 (it was going nowhere), but I tried to catch up with the recap before this episode and was still confused. Can someone bring me up to speed really quickly? Where did Hurley, Sawyer and Locke go too? Why do they want to go back to the island? Is somebody still stranded there? Clearly some of them were rescued...I was intrigued though.

Iffer said...

damn, dude, dame

Danny said...

In the rewind episode before the premiere, they showed clips from "Dave," and included Hurley gabbing Dave close for a hospital orderly to take a picture of them. So I'm 99% sure Hurley touched Dave, which is why I don't understand how Charlie convinced him that way.

My guess is that it's not Hurley hallucinating, but rather the island manifesting itself in the same way it did for Eko's brother, Jack's dad, and Kate's horse, or whatever those things were.

jim treacher said...

I think Jorge Garcia deserves an Emmy.

chris w said...

What makes you so sure it wasn't Locke in the cabin with Jacob? That was my gut reaction and I still think so.

Also, they listed John Terry (Christian Shepard) in the credits but he didn't show up...or did he? I think he's Jacob.

rukrusher said...

Ditto on flash forwards being much better then the flashbacks.

My guess on the other three is one is Sawyer. I would think that Juliet and Desmond would not be Oceanic 6 so they could get off as well, The romantic in you wants it to be Sun and Jin as the other two.

Kristin said...

Hurley did touch Dave. They showed that moment in the 8 pm pre-show. When Hurley was in the mental hospital the first time, he puts his arm around Dave and the psychiatrist takes their picture...only to show the picture to Hurley later, revealing he was putting his arm around air.

I loved the episode, too! What is with Charlie appearing?? And why did Hurley not seem freaked out by the idea that Charlie was dead but also there with him on the lawn? Why did that seem possible to Hurley?

What doesn't Jack want Hurley to tell anyone about? Things that happened on the island? or the fact that more people survived than the Oceanic 6, but they remained on the island?

I'm pulled right back in. Now I'm just peeved that the writers' strike means we only get 8 episodes. EIGHT. That is not enough!

Alan Sepinwall said...

My guess is that it's not Hurley hallucinating, but rather the island manifesting itself in the same way it did for Eko's brother, Jack's dad, and Kate's horse, or whatever those things were.

But that would suggest that either the island can manifest itself on the mainland, or that they're not actually on the mainland.

Alan Sepinwall said...

I think Jorge Garcia deserves an Emmy.

Damn straight, brother.

ct said...

Outstanding!

Is it Locke in the coffin? "Family or Friend? Neither."

Anxious to see how Hurley and Jack end up at home after splitting up.

Lane said...

Alan, I thought it was Christian Shephard's profile in Jacob's rocking chair? Or Florida governor Charlie Crist.

Alan Sepinwall said...

Also, they listed John Terry (Christian Shepard) in the credits but he didn't show up...or did he? I think he's Jacob.

That would be really cheap, if that's the case. Cuse and Lindelof have to know how obsessed their fans are; why would they put out such an obvious answer to that particular mystery?

Nick said...

Fanfreakingtastic! That ruled!

Oh and even though Dave touched Hurley but no one was able to see Dave other then Hurley but with Charlie it was implied that the other guy saw him too. What's up with that?

Danny said...

But that would suggest that either the island can manifest itself on the mainland, or that they're not actually on the mainland.

It's possible that the island is still connected to the survivors somehow. I only think this because of Hurley's "IT wants us to come back," meaning the island... I'm assuming.

I also am pretty sure the eye in the window was Jacob (it's a brown eye like it was last time they flashed on Jacob's eye); the guy in the rocking chair seems to be Jack's dad. I know!

rukrusher said...

@ Nick

It is possible that it was just the ramblings of a fellow psych with delusions of paranoia that would explain him seeing Charlie or it may be that Hurley was being watched by someone else and just went to Charlie in his head.

on the dole said...

SJ, glad to hear I wasn't the only one who quit in frustration after Season 2. I admit, I'm going off a summation of Season 3 rather than the real thing, so that may affect my perspective, but this one didn't suck me back in. I'll give it a bit more time because of all the raves, but I fear the cool to moronic ratio is just off for me.

The "go with Locke or Jack" choice was forced on everyone without a sufficient explanation of what happened to Charlie and what he was warning of, and Hurley throwing the walkie talkie in the ocean was the sort of monumentally stupid action I grew so weary of in the first two seasons. He could've snatched it from Sawyer and held onto it without destroying their only means of communicating with everyone else and potentially keeping tabs on what was happening.

Sorry to be negative, I'm sure most will rave here, and I don't want to rain on a parade. Curious if any others have my lukewarm reaction. Maybe this just isn't my show...

David said...

Did Charlie look especially gaunt to anyone else?

Goodness, man-- I know you're dead, but have a cheeseburger or something!

Bobman said...

I coudl say so much, but instead I just have one question that hopefully wasn't already answered (the comments are piling up awful fast) : didn't the cabin that Hurley stumbled upon look radically different than the cabin Ben brought Locke to? I don't remember the original Jacob cabin having a porch, for example.

Stephanie said...

Alan, THANK YOU for convincing me the show would be worth watching! I gave up last season after the umpteenth Sawyer-torture scene, but tonight's episode was great.

If Hurley's visitor had to ask "Are they still alive?" then I'd bet that somebody besides the Oceanic 6, whoever they are, is still alive and that Hurley, Jack et al have to stay silent to protect... who? Themselves, or the other survivors?

J said...

Harold Perrineau was also listed in the opening credits.

Alan Sepinwall said...

Harold Perrineau was also listed in the opening credits.

Yes. The producers announced back in the summer that Michael would be returning to the show this year.

JennJ said...

That episode was really great. I so already want to know who the other 3 of the Oceanic 6 are! I liked Ben's little knowledgable smile at Jack during the Naomi's not here scene. I was surprised not to hear Desmond speak up more about what he saw on Charlie's palm. All of the character reactions to Charlie's death were really well played. I *loved* the cannonball scene. Bernard's wistful laugh in slo-mo was a thing of beauty.

Here's a theory to put out there: is it different if Charlie touches Hurley vs. if Hurley touches Charlie? Ergo, might it be different if we checked the eps with Dave and found out Hurley touched him but dave never specifically touched Hurley? Or maybe that sounds crazy?

I never would have guessed that Hurley saw Charlie at the convenience store, but then again I just was thinking about the fish tank halluciantion. When I was watching that scene the figure did remind me of Charlie. I love that they gave us very little time for thinking b/c it was just so exciting and alive throughout.

I was thrilled to see Dom again. I know how hard it was on him that he had to leave the show. I believe he embraced it beautifully in his death scene, but maybe this was also a way for the producers to give him more closure. I hadn't heard about his appearance in advance so that was a great surprise. I hope other surprises stay that way. :)

That Abadon guy was waaaaaay creepy in that scene. I used to dig him in "Oz."

I'm seeing new comments as I end this...I agree about Jorge and The Emmy. Fantastic work from him! He wrenched all the tears from me.

Also seeing that plane wreckage again served to remind me that they originally had intended to kill the Jack character midway through the pilot. Weird flashback.

Did anyone else see the name of Fisher Stevens in the opening credits? I don't remember seeing him in the episode at all. Any help on this one, Alan?

rukrusher said...

Also while this flash forward is before the one from Through the looking glass it does show Jack is already drinking early in the day.

Anonymous said...

I find a Jack a lot more interesting than Hurley. But then, I loved last season.

Solid, intriguing premiere. Who are The Six?!?

chris w said...

On second thought, I think that was Christian Shepard in the rocking chair and Jacob's eye popping up.

J said...

Yeah, Fisher Stevens too. Why all these extra names in the credits. Even if they're going to be on later in the season, they don't have to be listed in every episode. Actually, doesn't it cost them more $ to do so?

Anyway, I think Perrineau played Charlie, and did a fine job of it.

Nick said...

What if Jacob is just using Christian Shepherd's body as a vessel? That would also explain why Christian's body was missing from the casket after the plane crash.

Number Five said...

As someone who almost always defends Lost, I was disappointed with the premiere. The big problem was the way they botched the "Not Penny's Boat" issue, which strangely enough, blunted the impact of Charlie's death even as they also spent too much time showing everyone's reactions to it.

I know the writers don't like information sharing scenes and they tried to deal with it with a throwaway line about how the warning could mean anything (early in the episode, just after Desmond shows up), but this was critical to the show! Instead we end up with ridiculous situations, like the six people who knew about the warning just waiting to let Jack kill Locke instead of saying something, capped off with a random debate that centered on Jack vs. Locke and not the warning. For everyone who was at the radio tower, Hurley's announcement was the first (and last) they heard about it! They could have had the same emotional effect by having Sayid announce the warning, a debate on what it meant, with Jack being stubborn and still urging rescue, then ending with Hurley emotionally proclaiming that despite his desire to be rescued, he would follow Charlie.

Also...Mikhail surviving the barriers last season was nothing compared to Naomi's sneak-crawl away from a huge group of people. To be fair, they barely seemed to notice that she had died, which is a bit callous.

Despite all that I'm still in agreement with Alan's praise of the episode and I'm really excited about the season. And Jorge Garcia definitely deserves an Emmy. I just think they could have handled the premiere better, logic and pacing-wise.

jennj said...

I will so not be surprised if Mikhail is not dead...he's just alive but missing a whole arm! That man never dies!

chris w said...

number five

But the Jack vs. Locke argument is over Charlie's message, hence why Hurley said he'll follow Charlie and Locke. Jack thinks that the boat people can't be that bad. Charlie and Locke think they are coming to kill them.

bill p said...

I've freeze-framed the cabin scene a few times. Defintely looks like Jack's dad in the rocking chair. The eye could be Locke, but it seems like the person has dark hair, but that might be weird shadows.

jim treacher said...

Did Charlie look especially gaunt to anyone else?

You can't spell Heaven without H!

Stef said...

Great post, great comments, great episode! I also thought it was Christian Shephard in Jacob's chair, and I really like the idea that Jacob may be using his body as a vessel. That explains all the sightings but still allows Christian to be dead.

Alan, you're totally on target about Lost's real emotional power. I think there have been just as many emotionally powerful and beautiful scenes as there have been good action scenes, and I love that balance. I actually teared up 3 times during tonight's episode. Some may not like it as much (another blog I read is kinda dumping on the episode) but I think that may be cuz it's a pretty emotionally dark outing, with more mystery and regret than action. But I loved it.

Dara said...

Killer season premiere! So much information, so many questions! Hurley screaming about the "Oceanic 6" really gives us something to chew on. And since I am hoping that the fastforwards are not set in stone and that they can still make different decisions and have a different outcome, then we will know they changed the future if more than 6 get off the island. Could the "we need to go" back be the reddest of herrings because it is leading us down the path that the only way to fix things is for them to return. What if they can still change their fate on the island and that awful bleak future doesn't happen. Charlie had a meaningful death and was perhaps the only one who could have started this chain of event, for good or bad, so is that evidence that things are mutable or not? Time will tell, and end of the writers strike. But Lindelof and Cuse have me solidly hooked!

For me the big question, other than the ones you guys have already brought up is: WHO is Naomi's sister? I can't remember, who said it first that she was from Pen, her or them? But why did she have the picture, and why just because she wasn't directly from Penny would that mean that her people meant ill to the Oceanic survivors. If Dharma is out to get Ben and the other Others, would they just be needing to kill our folks so there are no witnesses?

lungfish said...

Keeping along with Jack's dad in the being the one in the rocking chair the last Lost Missing Pieces episode (2 minute snippets that are available via Verizon wireless)is entitled "So it begins". The summary of that is as follows [from Lostpedia]:

"Plot: Vincent is running through the jungle on the island, when he encounters Christian Shephard. Christian tells Vincent to find Jack and wake him up because he "has work to do." The first scene of "Pilot, Part 1" then replays with Vincent encountering Jack as he is regaining consciousness."

Jack's dad seems to be like Charlie- dead but not really, which explains why Jack talked about him in the present tense in the flash forward from last season's finale.

Figgsrock2 said...

Is it wrong for me to be depressed that there are only 47 more episodes to go? After a top-notch premiere like this, I feel like a giddy child getting a bucketful of Halloween candy.

I agree Jorge Garcia deserves an Emmy for this ep alone.

But that would suggest that either the island can manifest itself on the mainland, or that they're not actually on the mainland.

Alan, didn't the island sort of have something to do with Juliet joining Ben and the Others by killing her ex? At least that's the way I interpreted it.

Oh, this return made me SO happy.

Anonymous said...

Wild speculation, of course, but in the midst of the kate and sawyer romance toward the end of the last season, many people assumed Sawyer was the 'him' Kate referenced in her conversation with bearded Jack. With Sawyer cutting his ties here and taking the route of "surviving", it seems more possible that Sawyer could be the man in the coffin, the 4th of the 'Oceanic 6' as we can now call them. Of course, we've got a long way to go and this show is anything but predictable. I can't wait to see what leads to only six of the survivors managing to 'escape' the island. With the line drawn in the sand, we get a clear reminder of just how many of these Flight 815 survivors are still around, despite the mass of nameless, virtually faceless 'extras' we still have not gotten to know.

Damn its good to have this show back

Dara said...

@jennj I am pretty sure it was Fisher Steven's voice on the sat phone who Naomi talked to before she died. And I am so psyched for Jeremy Davies, he is always great, he can do deadly serious and weird and creepy, so perfect fit for the show!

On a different note, how funny that the big bad for the season finale of Torchwood was Abbadon as well.

J said...

I am hoping that the fastforwards are not set in stone and that they can still make different decisions and have a different outcome

This would be a horrible, horrible thing, and the producers wouldn't be able to get away with it. Bobby in the shower. You just can't say to the audience, "By the way, all that stuff we showed you didn't happen."

jim treacher said...

Another vote for Jeremy Davies. He was KUHRAYZEE in Solaris.

I'm glad I recorded this. I'm going to watch this again. They gave Garcia every note to play they could think of, and he nailed them all.

Siddhartha said...

First off, great episode!!! I've been staying away from any Lost blog entries leading up to this premiere and am glad I did!

I totally agree with lungfish. I think Jack starts seeing his dad the same way Hurley starts seeing Charlie. That's why he tells the chief of surgery in SSN 3 Finale to call his dad downstairs.

I also freeze-framed in HD and it was DEFINITELY Christian in Jacob's chair.

The eye, I don't know. Mikhail? Charlie?

Siddhartha said...

I wonder if Michael is one of the Oceanic Six.

We know he's coming back to the show and they purposely mentioned Ana Lucia.

If the theme emerges that people that have left the island see visions of people that were dead on the island, I wonder if Michael will be reintroduced by having him see visions of Ana Lucia and Libby.

jennj said...

Dara: Thanks for a shout-out! :) I'm sorry to have to say I definitely recognized the voice of "George" as Jeremy Davies. I just have a weird, perverse knack for that (that and recognizing famous people on the street no matter who or where....)

I think Jeremy Davies is going to bring great edge to this part of the show. Very excited about him!

Mac said...

Also according to the all-powerful, all-knowing, usually accurate Wikipedia, "Abaddon" is also a place in Hell, or Hell itself, and means "destruction". So definitely bad news.

I was hoping that it was Michael parachuting down, which would have let me break out a "WAAAAAAAALLLLLLLT!" for old times' sake. C'est la vie.

Dara said...

Jeremy Davis can do that nasal thing, too. So you could be right. He just didn't sound like that to me when he spoke to Jack at the end. Part of the problem of seeing the names in the credits is that you are looking, listening, for them.

Mr. Bad Example said...

I just thought of something else. We understand that the "Ocean Six" have become overnight celebrities to a certain degree, right? Than the person in the coffin on the "Looking Glass..." flash-forward ca't be one of them, IMHO. No mention of him being one of the survivors in the obit, deserted vieweing, etc.

Yes, while those fabled Ocean Six might have been sold as the only survivors once they got back to the mainland, it seems more than those six could have gone back... but under which guise?

They SO got me back to this show...

Mac said...

And I agree with the chorus -- it was Christian in the chair, I don't have any doubt. I assume Locke was the other person in the cabin.

jennj said...

I am just loving reading everyone's theories again! Huzzah to all of them...right or wrong!

Mase said...

I'm with "Number Five" that it looked like Mikhail ("Patchy") is the one that looked out the window at Hurley. It appeared to be almost the exact same "look" that Mikhail gave when looking into the Dharma watching station camera from a while ago.

Consider Mikhail has already survived the protective barriers (as Number Five pointed out), a spear to the chest and, now, apparently, a hand grenade explosion.

Dara said...

I'm another vote for Christian's body if not spirit, and Patchy going to the source for some answers after finding out that Ben had been telling more fibs.

But what was it about the cabin appearing to Hurley the second time and then him being able to make it go away?

Kathy said...

I agree this was a great episode and I can't wait until next week. My only spoiler before viewing was that Daniels from "The Wire" was going to be on. Because I'm such a fan of "The Wire", it's a bit distracting him seeing him on this show. When Evan Handler is on as Hurley's imaginary friend Dave, I never get beyond thinking "What is Charlotte's husband doing on the island?".

I had a discussion today with a friend about Jack's dad: dead or alive? My theory is that he's alive-ish but it was based on the fact that he's the only person (that we know of) who was dead when he got to the island and there's some kind of island mojo-healing/back from the dead thing at work.

My theory blows up real good if you believe Charlie is alive-ish, because he died on the island and he's showing up off the island and that's whole new thing. I think they clearly intended us to believe that Charlie was some kind of real - the other mental patient seeing him and the slap - but I hope that's not the case. It would ruin the idea of the island being 'special' if things that happen there can also occur in the 'real' world.

I know it died a very ignoble death, but I was a fan of "The Nine" and the flash-forward thing on "Lost" is essentially what they were trying to acheive on that show - it's a very tricky premise, where you offer up at least a partial outcome but you still have to be able to maintain suspense.

We now know that Jack, Kate and Hurley make it off the island and so the suspense has to come from not *did* anyone survive but how did they survive? Why did some survive and not others? What terrible things happened to leave them so haunted and...lost back in the real word? What did they have to do to survive? What does the world know about them? Will Jack ever get back there?

I can't hardly wait.

jim treacher said...

Thanks to the miracle of Tivo: It's definitely Christian in the rocking chair, right down to those sneakers he's wearing in the mobisode. As for the eye, it looks to me like Daniel Day-Lewis, but that couldn't be right.

Dara said...

So, when does the parsing begin on the Oceanic Air commercial they showed during Eli Stone?
That plane looked underwater to me!

Toeknee said...

To follow up on Mr. Bad Example's point "while those fabled Ocean Six might have been sold as the only survivors once they got back to the mainland, it seems more than those six could have gone back... but under which guise?".....

My guess is that Kate is NOT one of the Oceanic 6. She's a murderer! I can’t imagine she’d be allowed to go free upon returning to the US. Maybe this is part of her agreement to get off the island – she’s set up with a new identity in a new location in exchange for keeping whatever secrets need to be kept.

Chuck said...

HD Freeze farme made it look like Jack's Dad was in Jacob's chair.

Side note: First time here, Alan, but long time reader back to your NYPD Blue recap days. I'll be back.

jim treacher said...

I have no interest in Alan McBeal, but I fast-forwarded it to that Oceanic commercial about 45 minutes in. Yeah, the plane's definitely underwater. Also, the URL switches to find815.com for half a second. Damn you, JJ Abrams. Damn you.

jim treacher said...

I guess if you follow all the clues at find815.com, you can watch a video. Or if you just want to cheat, click here. Looks to me like Widmore faked an ocean crash so everybody would quit looking.

Kenrick said...

Does anyone know what happened to Penny? As far as we know is she still out there looking for Desmond?

I felt bad for Jack, 'cause really he's doing everything he can to get himself and everyone else off that island. Locke hasn't given a solid reason that the people coming are bad, and the only thing Hurley has to go on is that it's "not penny's ship." They don't know what we know, so any sane person would take that chance to get off the creepy island.

One thing I have trouble swallowing is that Jack was willing to kill Locke, but yet Ben is still alive. It's the classic firing an unloaded gun to make you seem hardcore scene with no repercussions.

I think another obvious indication that this flash forward occurred before last season finale's is that last time, Jack told Kate he wants to go back.

Michael said...

Something else about Jack's dad from last season's finale... when Jack told the pharmacy nurse that she could go check with his dad upstairs (or however he put it), I originally thought that he was bluffing based on his dad's original status there at the hospital. But now I'm thinking that something funny just might be going on. Did his dad really get resurrected?

BigTed said...

I have to say that my love-hate relationship with this show is continuing.

There were certainly great aspects to this episode: the acting (especially on Garcia's part), the sentimental trip around familiar landmarks, and the scenes in future-tense L.A., which are certainly a refreshing change from an island setting that's become somewhat tiresome (where it seems as if the castaways have been stuck longer than the crew of the S.S. Minnow).

And yet... at the end of the episode, do we really know anything more than we did beforehand? We already knew that the rescuers were coming, and they're kind of sketchy and have their own agenda, and that some people will end up getting off the island and some won't, and that at least some of those who do will regret it. Meanwhile, we got glimpses of the same old mysteries (who's in Jacob's cabin? why do we keep seeing supposedly dead people?) that didn't really add anything to our understanding of the big picture.

After so many months since the last season, and given that there are only eight episodes in this one, I really wish things had moved along a little faster. Which has always been the most frustrating aspect of a show that's equal parts annoying and fantastic.

Anthony Foglia said...

Alan wrote, "Now, Hurley's apology to Jack about going with Locke could undercut [Hurley being right about everything]. [...] It's very possible that what Hurley's saying is that he should have stayed with Jack and tried to convince him that the freighter people were bad. But I guess we'll find out down the road."

Yeah, that last scene was the one thing I didn't get. First, he apologizes to Jack for leaving him for Locke, but then he says he thinks they should have stayed. If the split is about staying vs. going, how could _both_ be the right thing? There better be more going on there.

"If [Abaddon] doesn't represent Oceanic, who does he represent, and why does he care so much about the whereabouts of the other lostaways?"

There are bunch of different players much more involved with the island than Oceanic. Most obviously there's Naomi's people. But there's also Dharma, if they still exist off site, and Mittelos Bioscience (Juliet's employers), none of which have been in touch with the island since at least the plane crash, if not longer. Maybe some or all of them are the same, but not necessarily.

And from what Abaddon said, I wouldn't be so sure the non-Oceanic-Six aren't still alive somewhere, but hiding.

Now Charlie may have been seen by the Hurley's fellow patient, but more important is what was the thing he told Hurley he needed to do? Did anyone else worry that Hurley's duty was to kill himself?

Anthony Foglia said...

kenrick wrote, "One thing I have trouble swallowing is that Jack was willing to kill Locke, but yet Ben is still alive. It's the classic firing an unloaded gun to make you seem hardcore scene with no repercussions."

Never mind that. The bigger problem is Jack let Locke take Ben. Talk about mistakes that will come back to bite you...

Anonymous said...

I think the barge people kill certain people on the island and rescue others. Those rescued have a connection to the Island (which is still ill defined or not fully fleshed out)and it suits the Barge people's interests to get them off the Island. Those rescued people for some reason cannnot be killed or die while on the island. The Island regenerates certain people including reviving them from the dead. It also seems that this relationship is not a one way street and tthe Island derives some benefit from these individuals in return. For example, Locke's paralysis was cured by the Island and also survived a fatal gunshot by Ben. Jack should also be dead because he was tossed from the wreckage deep into the jungle and no one would survive such a tumble relatively unscathed as Jack did. In Jack's case it may have a genetic component because his father is no longer in his casket and may have been regenerated to the living on the Island. To that genetic component I add Claire who is Jack's half-sister and Christian Shepard's daughter and also her baby who is the first live successful birth on the Island. Also remember that Richard, one of the Hostiles, appears to be virtually immortal and ageless. Mikhail also always seems to be regenerated from the dead.

jim treacher said...

Does anyone know what happened to Penny?

Well, this episode picks up about 30 seconds after the last one, so she's probably pacing around her office freaking out after her conversation with Charlie.

I think another obvious indication that this flash forward occurred before last season finale's is that last time, Jack told Kate he wants to go back.

Yeah, plus he's still got it somewhat together, at least in public. He's having screwdrivers for breakfast, but he's still at least trying to put on appearances. Maybe his conversation with Hurley here planted the seed for the full-blown freakout we saw last episode?

...but more important is what was the thing he told Hurley he needed to do?

Go back to the island, right? "They need you." Some of them are still stuck there, maybe?

Kat Coble said...

Well,

"Abaddon" is a Hebrew name for what Christians commonly refer to as "The Devil" or "Satan", and is mentioned in Revelation. So the easy interpretation is that Mr. The Wire is going to be a Bad Guy.

But several mystery religions (including my own) use "Abaddon" to refer to The Dark Cave or "The Trial" which one must go through in order to have Higher Truth revealed to you.

A simplistic explaination would be that the tree on Dagobah is a form of Abaddon, as are the Peyote journeys undertaken by Shamans of various faiths.

Jesus' time in the desert, as well as John the Baptists' are Times of Abaddon according to the Mystery religions, and Plato's Cave Scenario is based in part on Mystery religions (of which Plato was an initiate.)

So if you want to take a deeper meaning from Mr. The Wire's presence, he (and Oceanic) could be the gateway to the reveal of the Higher Mystery.

TiVo Queen said...

I spent so much time trying to get a look at that friggin' eye that I'm going to have nightmares about it tonight.

The ep was great. I don't think the person in the finale coffin can be anyone from the Oceanic 6 because that death should have garnered media attention at the funeral, right? (Someone may have brought this up but I couldn't get through all 60+ comments).

Naomi's dying breath also seemed to insist she was there to save them so is she unaware of her cohorts nefarious purpose??

Anonymous said...

My only spoiler before viewing was that Daniels from "The Wire" was going to be on. Because I'm such a fan of "The Wire", it's a bit distracting him seeing him on this show.

It was even more distracting seeing the guy who plays Clay Davis pop up in "Enchanted." Sheeeeit.

"Lost" was all kinds of awesome tonight. I hope they can keep up this pace, at least through the shortened season we're getting right now. Jorge Garcia rules!

dez said...

Ack, Anonymous 3:19 a.m. is me, dez. Forgot to sign my name.

drake leLane said...

Lost Easter Eggs has the cabin stills up now, and as many have stated, it's clearly Christian Shephard in the rocking chair.

JOY said...

Sepinwall, I swear, sometimes I think you are me writing this stuff. As always, on freakin' target.

You're right, I stopped caring about the mysteries of the island a while ago. Tonight, I'm overthinking everything.

And, now I'm actually sad there will only be these 8 hours for this season.

crc said...

I like what you are saying Dez. Does anybody think that the man Kate needs to get back to in the flashforward might be the cop she married who somehow was able to get the charges dropped? How 'bout them apples?

Alan Sepinwall said...

Kate also could have assumed the identity of another Oceanic passenger. There'd be the problem of her fugitive face being all over the news, I suppose, but it's possible.

memphish said...

Alan, Dave slapped Hurley while he was in the mental hospital just like Charlie did. It was in the scene where Dave woke Hurley to escape from the hospital. On Island, Dave hurled rocks at Hurley to "prove" he wasn't just in Hurley's head.

And for those wondering you did hear Fischer Stevens last night. It was not Minkowski who parachuted on to the Island.

christy said...

My first thought about The Wire guy was that when he asked if "they" were still alive, he meant the Dharma Initiative people. Seeing as how they got a food drop in the second season, I assume that someone, somewhere presumed that they were still there, even if that someone is just a food-droppin' robot plane.

'Course, there are way too many unknowns to really come up with any sort of comprehensive theory at this point. But it sure is fun to contemplate.

Alan Sepinwall said...

Amusing footnote to yesterday's column: a commenter said that, while I went out of my way to avoid spoiling the episode, and Tim Goodman went out of his way, reading both our reviews inadvertently spoiled something in the episode.

So I went and read Tim's column, and he did a similar trick with the list of things ABC asked us not to spoil. Where I quoted the ABC PR request as "Any details about Hurley's (redacted), or that he even has a (redacted)," Tim quoted it as "Any details about (character X's) flash forward, or that (character X) even has a flash forward."

We'll have to coordinate better next time.

Achie Goodwin said...

I am actually a little surprised that almost everyone seems so positive on that episode, since to me it was the same old Lost. The last finale left us with two big cliffhanger mysteries: why does Jack who was working so hard to get off the island come to think that doing so was a mistake and if it wasn't Penny's people on the boat than who are they? Both of these questions seemed to have the same answer, that the people on the boat were bad. Yet this premiere did not even remotely address this central question of the last finale. We don't meet anyone from the boat till the last thirty seconds. This is largely caused by a silly plot contrivance, with a character who was lying around dead for a few hours (and it's a good thing there were no world class neurosurgeons around to tell if she was really dead or not) being able to sneak away from a crowded clearing in the middle of the day without anyone noticing, lay a decoy trail, and climb a tree, all as an excuse to prevent them from talking to the boat for most of the episode. Benry seems to know something about who these people really are, but of course won't tell anybody why he thinks they are so bad and instead just tosses out cryptic warnings. And the classic Lost tactic of having characters inexplicably not share important information--in this case caused by Sayid's odd confidence that the freighter must be listening in on them followed by Hurley throwing the walkie-talkie into the ocean--preventing them from talking about the Charlie's dying message until the very end of the episode. And even then, as on the dole pointed out, it was more of a throwaway line in the argument between Jack and Locke than something that was given its own value and discussion by the Lostaways.

I would be more angry about having to wait eight months for an episode that that basically said, “maybe next week we will finally think about beginning to resolve this cliffhanger,” but I realized that we are still waiting for some resolution of season 2's big cliffhanger/twist. Does anybody at this point think we are ever going to get any resolution on those two Penny Widmore employees sitting in the middle of Antarctica? Were they looking for the island? Why? Just for Desmond? If they were looking for the island, how did they know about the EM pulse? And if they did find it, why haven't they done anything about it yet? We are still waiting for answers to any of that, so it really should not surprise me that this season premier told us nothing new except that Hurley also made it off the island.

There were also the new mysteries just thrown out there. Like the guy from the wire coming to talk to Hurley now indicates that there is yet another powerful secret organization that we know nothing about that is interested in the island. Then we have the whole thing with Charlie. And a gratuitous appearance by Jacob and his magical moving cabin. Heck, even things we thought we had the answers to were made more complicated by this episode. “Through the Looking Glass” seemed to strongly indicate that the reason Jack wanted to go back to the island was because the rescue boat really was bad people as Benry, Locke, and Penny's revelation warned. But now we see that Jack seemed perfectly fine when first getting off the island, so we need to wait even longer to find out why he changed his mind and went from a happy and confident physician to a suicidal wreck.

As unfortunate as it is, I am still a fan of Lost. There are many good things about the show. I have just come to the realization that the writers are who they are. They are incredible at coming up with intriguing and exciting mysteries and twists. They just have no idea what to do with the ones they do come up with. When they do reveal things, they tend to be very disappointing, like how they spend two seasons slowly introducing this intriguing and mysterious group of others, and then the third season was supposed to finally reveal the truth about the group. In reality we got very little information, and what we did learn made the Others far less interesting. So they simply move us off to the next shiny mystery or exciting twist, hoping we won't notice that they have no idea how to answer any of the cool questions that they propose. Even the flashforwards, which I agree are much better than the recent flashbacks have been, appear like they too are quickly becoming tools to drag out the plot and ask more questions. The coolness of Charlie's return was ruined, for instance, when his message was the intentionally vague, “They need you.,” indicating that we are now going to have to wait seven or eight episodes to get the next hint as to who exactly the “they” is, by which point we will probably have encountered a statue with three arms and a seventh powerful mysterious organization with ties to the island.

This is definitely not a new and improved Lost. It is simply the same old Lost. Some people like it and still obsess over the neverending mysteries. Some people have gotten tired of the neverending mysteries and given up. And some people have gotten tired of the neverending mysteries but have come to accept Lost for what it is and are willing to tolerate the bad to enjoy the good aspects of the show and quietly hope for improvements. But this was most definitely not some new birth of goodness for the series. It was just another episode of Lost.

Sorry for the long rant. It's just that Alan got me kind of excited again, and I needed to share my disappointment in as verbose a manner as possible.

special k said...

AchieGoodwin, I couldn't agree more. Usually I am in 100% agreement with you Alan, but this time I'm a little stumped. I don't get all the love. It was a fine episode, a good episode, but it was the same old Lost for me. In fact, the three other people I watched with yelled in frustration, "That's it??? That's what we waited 8 months for? Nothing really has progressed!"

And for some reason I really am bummed about Fisher Stevens joining the cast. Fisher Stevens? Seriously?? Why???

Ah well, I am glad new eps are back, but if all 8 are just pretty good like this, I don't see what all the hype is about.

Simon Crowe said...

Although I was surprised that there wasn't more discussion of the 'Not Penny's Boat' issue, I liked the episode overall. A few thoughts:

1. It was clearly John Terry in the chair.

2.In last season's finale Kate says something like "Why would I go to his funeral?" in response to Jack's saying he'd hoped to see her there. I think this makes Locke or Michael the two most likely candidates for the coffin.

3. Just before seeing Charlie, Hurley is seen drawing an igloo. Does this refer to the guys who see the island's signal at the end of season 2, who I think were at one of the poles? (Or to the polar bear?)

4. It was great to see Dominic Monaghan again, but I hope we aren't going to be seeing a lot of ghosts showing up in the "present." It would be much more intriguing to deal with Jack, Hurley, and whoever else as "castaways" a second time....

BF said...

Does anybody think that the man Kate needs to get back to in the flashforward might be the cop she married who somehow was able to get the charges dropped?

I think it might be her as-yet-unborn kid. The Others really seemed to think she got knocked up while she & Swayer were in the cages.

Anonymous said...

Achie Goodwin, I don't think you're totally off the mark here. Even when the show was getting really stagnant (i.e., last season), it still had its defenders. Some people just love to try to figure out the mysteries. I personally found this episode entertaining and it got me thinking about a lot of the questions Alan and the other posters have mentioned. Overall though, no, they didn't tell us that much, and yes, the characters always avoid discussing things that regular people would discuss (things that would clarify what is happening). While I think the flashforwards have added a lot of intrigue (great idea), we'll probably all end up disappointed when the show either avoids solving "mysteries" or quickly moves on to another. For now though, this episode was good enough to give us some hope again, and I think that's part of what got everyone excited.

Lizbeth said...

Because the cop asked Hurley if he met Ana Lucia "in the airport" or "on the plane", I'm assuming that he and the rest of the world believe that everyone else on flight 815 died during the crash (or else he would have asked "did you meet her on the island?")

For whatever reason, our Oceanic 6 are keeping a secret about the Island and the people they left behind. And about who survived the crash.

Why? Did they make a deal to save themselves, leaving the others behind, only to pretend they're all dead? If so, I could see why the guilt would tear someone like Jack apart or cause Hurley to go crazy. Not sure why or how Kate is a 'free woman.'

As for Charlie -- is he alive or an hallucination? I don't think time is lineal on Lost which explains how people keep coming back from the dead...and may even explain why Kate is not a fugitive in the future...

Allison said...

GREAT ep, if only for the revelation that only 6 make it out, and they're lying about the other survivors.

I have a theory now that the guy in the coffin from the finale is Ben. It fits with him being neither family or friend, and I think he was Jack's last hope for how to get back to the island.

todmod said...

I've never been able to understand the people who want immediate answers to everything Lost brings up. It's the reason the old Heroes vs. Lost debate was started (and seems to have died quickly thanks to Heroes). I can see being frustrated during a Jack tattoo episode where nothing is answered and the show is pointless. But plenty DID happen in this one. I enjoy the building mysteries - with everything answered it would simply become a "how do they get off the island" show.

And I think Alan is way too hard on Jack. Sure he's stubborn (and pretty clearly wrong). But Ben has been the one telling him to stay on the island. How could you believe that master manipulator over the hope of saving everyone?

And finally, every single line uttered by Ben in this episode was pure gold. Even though I was happy that Terry O'Quinn got an Emmy, Michael Emerson amazes me every time.

Susan said...

Alan, I didn't catch your reference to "Jack's wink at Ben." When did that happen?

I disagree that the person waiting for Claire at home at the end of season 3 is her unborn child. It doesn't seem THAT long after they get off the island, and she says, "He's going to be wondering where I am." I think it's clear that "he" is an adult.

Also, Alan, I believe that "Dave" touched Hurley in the mental hospital when they posed for a picture together, arms around each other - then you see the picture only has Hurley in it.

I thought it was Locke's eye in the window at Jacob's cabin. Which makes sense: Locke and Jacob have some sort of bond; and Locke was immediately there with Hurley in the woods afterwards.

I loved the episode. I think it's setting up a great question for season 4 - who gets off the island and who stays and why? And Alan, you're completely right about it being the emotional character moments that really make this show - Hurley has always been a favorite of mine, and seeing him struggling throughout this episode (with grief, fear, confusion) really drew me in.

Toby said...

Allison, I don't think it could be Ben in that coffin. One of Wednesday's pop-ups said that a leading theory has the newspaper article stating that the deceased was from New York and moved to LA.

Ben was from Portland, or from the Northwest in general.

Because of the neighborhood in which the funeral home was located, I'm sticking to the Michael in the Box theory.

Freckles said...

On Charlie making an appearance from the dead:

Whether or not Charlie is only in Hurley's head, he can be real. We are talking about a guy who is a spirit or something, back from the dead. The rules of science and reality don't apply. I don't think it is incompatible for Charlie to be something in Hurley's head and still really be Charlie.

That said, the other guy claimed to see Charlie too... but then Hurley could also have hallucinated the other guy seeing Charlie.

jim treacher said...

Achie Goodwin: I didn't assume all my questions were going to be answered with 47 episodes left to go. I realize they're still leading me around by the nose, but they did it in a much more entertaining manner than they did at the beginning of season 3. And yeah, it benefited from being the only thing worth watching on network TV for the last 3 months.

AchieIsRight said...

I have to say AchieGoodwin gets it exactly right for me. At several points during throughout the show my couchmate and I looked at each other and said "Nothing new is happening". It is the same old Lost. Alan as much as I have loved your writing I am completely stumped at how you loved this episode. I won't repeat Achie's list but on point after point it is the same old avoidance of intelligent plot progress and exploration of mysteries.

jim treacher said...

Finding out Hurley gets off the island is "nothing new"? Him standing up to Jack is "nothing new"?

Toeknee said...

I don't understand why people say we didn't learn anything, and nothing happened.

We learned Hurley gets off the island. We learned that he goes back into a mental institution. We learn the public knows/thinks there were 6 survivors. We learned that Jack was actually happy at some point when he got off the island, despite what we saw in the season 3 finale. We learn that Locke comes back to be part of the Losties, as opposed to going off and trying to find Jacob or the remaining Others. We learned that the apparitions of Christian have something to do with Jacob.

It's fine if you didn't enjoy the show, but like jim treacher said, if they answered all the questions in this episode, what would they do for the next 47. This is Lost, this is the way the story is told. Again, it's fine if you don't like it, but if you watched the first 3 seasons, why would you expect anything significantly different in terms of questions being answered?

AchieIsRight said...

Sorry jimtreacher I was trying to make a general point without writing too much. To be clearer of course there were some new things, but in terms of the core of what makes Lost Lost it was more of the same bad approach. Yes we will over time find out #4 and #5 and #6 of the Oceanic 6 etc., and we will meet a new character from Naomi's boat, and .....But Hurley standing up to Jack was really yet another ridiculous group interaction where the most basic of information is withheld for no logical reason other than extra supposed dramatic tension. Any close to normal discussion of Charlie's message would get them all trying to figure it out together - which to me would be a LOT more interesting and intriguing.

Jim B. said...

I'm with you, Alan. After last year's concluding episode, I can't hate anymore. They've got me. Yo, Lindelof, I am your dog.

I also caught the Abadon reference, and in spite of the PTB assuring us that the survivors aren't dead, it nonetheless got me thinking about a "Jacob's Ladder" scenario, and maybe if not actually dead, then there's the possibility perhaps (funny, when discussing this show how necessary it is to resort to all sorts of qualifiers) of some kind of trans-dimensional migrating going on.

Only eight episode this season. Damn that strike!

jennj said...

Memphish: I have no idea what your "Menkowski" reference is...can you please explain?

Again, I'll just put this out there, I don't believe Fisher Stevens was in that ep at all, in person or voice. I did check the IMDB and he's not listed for last night's episode. I know voices really well and I just don't think any of the voices from the sat. phone were his.

I do find hiring Fisher Stevens odd by all I know of Lost, but that's only b/c my last memory of him was as Phoebe's annoying psychiatrist boyfriend on Friends. I trust their casting abilities, so I can keep an open mind for now. :)

Alan Sepinwall said...

People are saying that Stevens is the voice of the guy on the sat phone -- which is not the same as the guy who jumps out of the helicopter at the end of the episode, played by Jeremy Davies.

Mo Ryan said...

Re Lance Reddick in Lost: "It was even more distracting seeing the guy who plays Clay Davis pop up in "Enchanted." Sheeeeit."

Dang, I'm with you there. That was crazy.

As for those who thought this episode was more or less a catch-up and meant to set the scene for next week (and thus, for some, disappoingting) -- well, that's what it is, really something to set the stage for next week, when a lot more sheeeit goes down.

I dunno, I can't hate on an episode with such fine acting and great emotional moments -- plus solid plot movement. What does Tim Gunn always say -- Chacon a son gout. It's a matter of taste.

I agree with those who now thing Jack's "Get my dad down here" moment from the Season 3 finale might have an actual basis in Jack having seen dad via hallucinations, Jacob, whatever. I hated that line in the finale -- thought it was a cheat. Would be glad to know it kinda wasn't a cheat.

I think it was Patchy in the cabin. And Col. Mustard in the drawing room with a candlestick.

Agreed with whoever said Jack would try to shoot Locke but lead Ben around like a puppy? Please. He may disagree with Locke and his actions, but he knows Locke's deeds are grounded in what he thinks is right. While Ben (a character I love btw) is just an eeevil manipulator. I don't get it. Whatev. At least Terry O'Quinn rocked his line: "It isn't loaded, Jack."

memphish said...

That's right Alan. It was in casting news which might or might not fall in spoiler territory. But in terms of getting screen credit, you don't necessarily have to appear in an episode do you? I hear there were several credits that did not appear last night. I myself ignore those things when it first airs so I'm not "Waaaallllttt" spoiled again as in the S3 finale.

Mo Ryan said...

"some kind of trans-dimensional migrating going on."

That would explain a lot. Nicely put, Jim B.

Anonymous said...

Fisher Stevens was on the other end of the radio so he was kind of in the episode.

jennj said...

Why bother asking an actual question if no one will answer it? I'm sorry, it's just a big pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, I didn't hear a voice that sounds like FS, so until I see him, I just don't care anymore.

jim treacher said...

What basic information was withheld? Hurley said he believed Charlie's final message, that the people on the boat aren't who Naomi said they were. That's all Charlie knew, and he made sure to pass it on before he died. Now they all know that's what Charlie said, and how they react to it tells us a little bit more about who they are. I thought it worked. After three years (or three months), Hurley's starting to come into his own.

mailman said...

I liked the opening car chase. Saw the old Camaro and said "that's Hurley's!" It's from the Tricia Tanaka is Dead ep. http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:3x10-auto-hurley-camaro2.jpg

CoolSid said...

Check out the picture Hurley is drawing in the scene where Charlie shows up.

I swear its of Penny's guys in the igloo.

lizvelrene said...

Just because I haven't seen anyone else suggesting it: my household concluded that the "eye" in the cabin belongs to Mysteriously Not Aging Guy. We can't remember his name, but he was the native islander who appeared to Ben as a child and then looks exactly the same in the present. He also offered advice to Locke on how to kill his father, and seems to be a major string-puller in the Others camp.

We've been convinced for some time that Christian Shephard is on the island and possibly IS Jacob, somehow. I mean, THE NAMES alone...

Finally, my guess is that they really did find the wreckage of the flight complete with bodies, and then the Oceanic 6 turn up (probably not long afterwards, due to wonky time stuff) on a little boat or something and claim to be the only survivors, so as to prevent anyone from finding the island.

The man in the coffin in the future was Michael. He's on the freighter presently. The freighter people are the Dharma Initiative, and they were doing Very Bad Things to the island before Ben killed their earlier members and took over, and they've been trying to get back to the island ever since. Wild stabs in the dark, there.

jennj said...

By the way, Kristin Dos Santos has a statement up on her website at EOnline that when Charlie swims through the mirror he puts his palm up. It reads, "They Need You."

FYI.

on the dole said...

Jim Treacher and others confused on the complaint about basic info being withheld:

Desmond returns to the beach and tells a handful of people that Charlie is dead, and his dying action was to warn it's "not Penny's boat." Hurley manages to tell Claire that Charlie is dead, but not about the warning, and I guess Locke is privy as well. But that still leaves almost 40 people forced to make a choice between going with Jack or Locke without having important information on why. Hurley's speech provides little to no context-- about all the other 40 can pick up from it is "Whoa, sounds like Charlie's dead, and he'd have wanted us to go with Locke for some strange reason."

drake leLane said...

While Hurley didn't say the words "not Penny's boat," he did say that Charlie gave warning that "the people on the boat are not who they say they are" -- pretty much boiling down Charlie's message to it's core for the group, and in the context of mourning a good friend, it was done well.

I think this is a case, where as a viewer, we have more info on what happened than any living character, and there's unrealistic expectation that our knowledge must somehow be passed on to the group, when in fact, Desmond (and Hurley, indirectly) only have the sharpie marker message and a feeling to go on.

jim treacher said...

Yeah, maybe they used too much shorthand, but for dramatic purposes, I got the feeling that the message was clear to all of the Oceanic 50. (Or however many there are... the extras seem to change from one episode to the next, huh?)

Yeah, Hoodie Charlie In the Cop Mirror had "THEY NEED YOU" written on his hand. The Lost Easter Eggs blog has a screenshot. They know everybody's got Tivo and cable modems now...

on the dole said...

At some point I should probably bow out and leave the debate to those less frustrated by the show, but I do want to point out that it wasn't just the background extras learning of Charlie's death and warning through Hurley's out-of-context speech. Even Jack learns of it that way, which means he didn't have important info when he gave everyone the choice between him and Locke. Hurley basically punked him out, and then, for no apparent reason, Jack doesn't bother to adjust his argument, or make any further argument at all, as to why people should go with him instead of Locke. The scene really makes no sense as is, and could've easily been fixed with a bit of dialogue leading up to Hurley's impassioned speech.

Anonymous said...

Jennj,

Sorry but it was Fisher Stevens on the other end of the radio.

Anonymous said...

Not enough eyeliner on that eye for it to be Bat-Manuel.

Anonymous said...

"Abaddon" may be a demon in hell, but "Abbadon" is a demon in hell who enjoys 70's disco.

jim treacher said...

It's definitely a tightrope, trying to balance the information that's given to the viewer with the information that's given to the characters, without indulging in a lot of boring exposition. And I'm sorry, but a scene where they argued about what Charlie said and what it meant would have been boring. If nothing else, their job is to not be boring. They got the point across and gave Garcia yet another moment to shine in an episode that was full of them. They did it.

marcus said...

Hopefully now that Lance Reddick is on the credits they can get him to do the "Previously on Lost" like he does for the Wire. He's got the perfect narrator voice.

Alan Sepinwall said...

Hopefully now that Lance Reddick is on the credits they can get him to do the "Previously on Lost" like he does for the Wire. He's got the perfect narrator voice.

Which reminds me: it always drives me nuts trying to figure out who the current "Previously" guy is (J.K. Simmons?), but I'm always too lazy to look it up -- even though it probably would have taken me less time to do that than to type this comment. Anybody know? Please justify my stubbornness.

treved said...

here's the "I NEED YOU" screengrab:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6Kp_8BEz9I/AAAAAAAASgY/uVrQnA77eos/s1600-h/charlies-hand.gif

dez said...

Not enough eyeliner on that eye for it to be Bat-Manuel.

Hee hee hee! BTW, to whoever mentioned it, Mysteriously Not Aging Guy is named Richard, I think. But we call him Bat-Manuel over in these parts.

Dang, I'm with you there. That was crazy.

Even crazier that Clay was macking on Livia from "All My Children." Yeah, I watch soaps.

I'm one of the people who are enjoying the ride that is "Lost," despite the occasional frustrating aspects (like Jack consistently acting like a dumbass). I love that there are all the easter eggs for the obsessives, but mostly, I love the acting and the characters. I'm almost always entertained watching "Lost" (Jack's dumbass tattoo notwithstanding), and I enjoy puzzling out the mysteries after. I'm in until the bitter (and probably majorly let-downish) end :-)

treved said...

sorry, i meant "THEY NEED YOU"

Rover said...

Which reminds me: it always drives me nuts trying to figure out who the current "Previously" guy is (J.K. Simmons?), but I'm always too lazy to look it up -- even though it probably would have taken me less time to do that than to type this comment. Anybody know? Please justify my stubbornness.


Alan, it's never been officially disclosed, but the interwebs speculation seems to center around Lloyd Braun, with John Terry as first runner-up. I don't have any insight, myself, but I thought I'd contribute the google search...

Alan Sepinwall said...

Thanks, Rover. Lloyd's voice isn't that deep, as I recall. I could see it being Terry's, maybe with some digital tweaking.

David Bushman said...

OK, I'm going out on a limb and guessing that Juliet is the one in the coffin because: a) Kate seemed surprised Jack would even think she'd go to the funeral, b) Juliet has GOT to be one of the Oceanic Six because there's no way she's staying on that island, and c) Her ex-husband was hit by a bus and her sister had cancer,so -- assuming the sister has died -- who would have gone to her funeral?

Dara said...

Alan, is there any word about what is being done about mysteriously unaging man/ Richard Alpert since Nestor Carbonell is a regular on Cane this season?

Brian said...

"Alan, it's never been officially disclosed, but the interwebs speculation seems to center around Lloyd Braun, with John Terry as first runner-up."

whenever I hear John Terry's voice, I say, "Why can't he be more like Lloyd Braun?"

Mo Ryan said...

As others have speculated, I'm in the camp of thinking that the Oceanic 6 is not just six people. Or rather, we should probably not assume that only 6 people got off the island. I bet more did, and why and how they got back, and the deals they cut to get there -- that's what the next 47 eps will really be about.

In other words, I think I'm gonna pass on speculating who the 6 were because I'd bet a six-pack of Dharma brew that there were more than 6 that made it back.

Clay Davis on a soap? Now you are exploding my brain. That'd be like seeing Omar on Hannah Montana.

jennj said...

Thanks, Anon.

I realize now I should have been more specific about what question of mine wasn't answered. I asked Memphish about a word he used; he never answered. The question was not about Fisher Stevens.

I just really have a keen dislike for asking a question on a blog and no one answering. It happens more often than not so hence why it's more "keen."

Like I said if he is the voice that's fine. I just wanted to only point out it wasn't (yet) on the IMDB.

So it goes said...

Concerning on the dole's problems with the Hurley speech scene; people outside of the core group have been left out of the knowledge loop (or at least way behind the curve) since they started discovering things about the island. I think they're used to weird stuff happening necessitating decision making with little to no knowledge of whats going on at this point.

I think the question about who the losties should follow really boils down to reason (maybe the only chance you get to leave the island, gotta try) vs. faith in Locke and/or Hugo's interpretation of Charlie's message. I think we have Jack and Locke leading the two groups for that reason.

jim treacher said...

I think it's Lloyd Braun. I remember reading that they kept his "Previously on Lost" thing as a tribute to him greenlighting the show when nobody else would, giving ABC a huge hit, and then getting fired for his efforts.

I just really have a keen dislike for asking a question on a blog and no one answering.

Why is that?

barry said...

Did no one else find it ridiculous that Jack actually hung up several times on the boat people while telling the "firewood" lie? Here's their best chance at rescue, and he hangs up on them?? Very strange and unbelievable.

jennj said...

Jim: Are you joking or serious?

I don't mind rhetorical questions going unanswered, but if someone references something I don't know and I ask specifically...well, in my mind it's rude not to respond. That's just how I think. If it's right for the real word, but not right for the blog world then I guess I'll continue to stay disappointed until I learn to not care. ;)

Anonymous said...

Great episode last night. I was pretty sad Lost was coming back because I'm just so afraid of the end coming. It's just too much fun reading theories about what's to come, what we don't know yet, that every new episode just feels like one step closer to the end. I remember a time when Tom was the biggest, baddest, scariest Other, but in Season 3 he was, truly, "Mr. Friendly."

It's funny. When Lance Reddick popped onto my screen, my immediate thoughts didn't go to Cedric Daniels and The Wire. They went to Johnny Basil. They've gotta keep up the tradition of Oz characters appearing. First Augustus Hill, then Adebisi. We had Governor Devlin in "Not in Portland."

I'm just really, really surprised how frightening the man was. I have all the love in the world for Daniels, but this Abbadon character... I thought Ben was scary.

David Bushman said...

It seems to me that the reasonable thing to do is to heed Charlie's warning and retreat, while those who stay behind and wait for the boat are the ones being called on to have faith -- to believe in a sort of benevolent divine intervention just because they want so desperately for it to be true. Sound familiar?

jim treacher said...

Jim: Are you joking or serious?

Why?

Nick said...

Which reminds me: it always drives me nuts trying to figure out who the current "Previously" guy is (J.K. Simmons?), but I'm always too lazy to look it up -- even though it probably would have taken me less time to do that than to type this comment. Anybody know? Please justify my stubbornness.

I thought they confirmed it in one of their podcasts that initially the voice was Loyd Braun but now it is Carlton Cuse.

domino87 said...

it has been confirmed from this link:

http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=484ef4ea-19b1-4e42-ae78-d57998c34318

that it is indeed John Terry in the chair.

Anthony Foglia said...

jennj, you asked Memphish about Minkowski, but the only thing he's said is "It was not Minkowski who parachuted on to the Island."

He's basing that on the fact it was obviously Fisher Stevens's voice as Minkowski on the sat phone, and judging from the teaser, it's not Fisher Stevens who parachuted on the island. (That, and probably minor spoilers.) As for where he got the name Minkowski, that's what the guy on the phone said his name was.

"Why bother asking an actual question if no one will answer it?"

I don't know. Why did you? This is a blog post. Don't expect people to read it more than once. And don't complain when they don't. This isn't Usenet, or even a bulletin board.

Now, more interesting is the names. We have Minkowski, which is the name of a famous physicist, and Jeremy Davies's character also has the last name of a famous physicist. Very appropriate for the technical/scientific people we're expecting. I guess the writers have moved on from philosophers.

christy said...

Mo Ryan, I am so with you on the Oceanic 6. For one, my strongest theory right now is that Kate is NOT one of the Oceanic 6, despite having left the island. That she kept her escape on the DL to avoid arrest.

And/or...

The funeral is Kate's because she faked her own death. I was listening the second and third times I saw the finale and I'm pretty sure that there was no indication of the gender of the deceased. It was "the funeral" not "his funeral" and "are you friend or family?" not "how did you know him?"

I'm less confident of this second theory, for obvious reasons. At this point it could be almost anyone's funeral. Very few characters had much of anyone left in the real world who'd attend their funeral.

crc said...

I have a question. In the extras of the DVD of last season, the segment about the "Orchid" showed the Dharma scientist getting freaked out about the appearance of a second "15" rabbit that needed to be kept away from the original. It suggests a sort of "Schoendinger's cat" type of thing and the possibility of an alternate universe or something. Is anyone talking about this? It seems pretty big/

JC said...

I miss Nikki and Paolo.

Kidding!

Was that the Asian guy from the Dharma instructional videos on the preview for next week's show?

drake leLane said...

JC - that's actually Ken Leung, the same actor who played Junior's son-like figure in the psych lock-up, Carter Chong, near the end of the final season of The Sopranos.

The actor who played Marvin Candle, the guy in the Dharma Initiative orientation video, is actor Francois Chau.

jim treacher said...

The funeral is Kate's because she faked her own death.

But then why would Jack ask why she didn't go to the funeral? Why would he be so broken up about it if he knew she wasn't really dead? When he called her, it was obviously the first time he'd talked to her since he'd read the obit, and he didn't seem to think it was hers.

dez said...

Clay Davis on a soap? Now you are exploding my brain. That'd be like seeing Omar on Hannah Montana.

Heh, I don't know if he was ever on a soap (there are none listed in his IMDB entry), but the woman who played his wife in "Enchanted" is (or was) on "All My Children."

Jack hanging up on the "rescuers" isn't any more ridiculous than the other dumbass things he does on a regular basis.

jim treacher said...

...Hurley throwing the walkie talkie in the ocean was the sort of monumentally stupid action I grew so weary of in the first two seasons.

I just watched that part again. He did it because Sayid said the freighter people might be monitoring their communications, and they shouldn't let on that they knew something was wrong. Hurley believed that Charlie knew what he was talking about, which would mean Sayid was right and Sawyer was wrong. Hurley knew they didn't have time to keep bickering about it. He had good reason to do it.

Jack Shaftoe said...

Did anyone else feel a connection between the Oceanic 6 and the Final Five?

I also wonder at the length of time elapsed between the flashforward in this episode and the one in last season's finale. All we know is that it's at least as long as it would take Jack to grow a beard (and he's such a man that could be three days). But in that time a couple of things happen: Jack changes his mind about needing to go back, and he becomes less of a celebrity as a member of the Oceanic 6. In this new ep, he tells Hurley he signs autographs when he goes out, but in "Through the Looking Glass," even when he's hailed by the media as a hero for the car crash rescue, we never hear him referred to as an 815 survivor. Wouldn't this be a major story? Thought-dead air disaster survivor rescues boy from burning car? Sure, the media's fickle, as is the public, but to me this points to a maybe-hefty chunk of time passing.

christy said...

But then why would Jack ask why she didn't go to the funeral? Why would he be so broken up about it if he knew she wasn't really dead? When he called her, it was obviously the first time he'd talked to her since he'd read the obit, and he didn't seem to think it was hers.

Well, I said I wasn't very confident of that theory. :) Believe me, it's one of many insane theories I have about whose funeral that was. Don't take it too seriously. But for the sake of argument, a possible answer to your last question (well, the question implied in your last sentence--how'd he know the death was fake after seeing the obit but before talking to Kate) could be that she told him ahead of time, "Jack, I'm going to fake my own death."

A possible answer to your second question is that Jack really, really didn't want her to do that for some reason, so he was upset to find out that she did. (Her sly smile as she says "hi" at the airport could be a sort-of "hi, I defied you" smile).

Your first question could be asked of any theory, really. Obviously Kate wouldn't go to the funeral. We know this for two reasons. One, she didn't go. Two, she asks "why would I go?" with a hint of disdain. Why would Jack expect her to? Why indeed.

But this isn't really what I think happened, just a theory for the fun of coming up with theories. Here are two things I really think:
1. We don't have enough information to rule out anyone, including characters that haven't been introduced yet, and characters that are still alive at the time, for whose funeral it is. Especially given how much time seems to pass between "now" (on the island) and "then" (in the finale flash-forward). It could be...so, so many things. I feel like I think of a new possibility every time I think about it.
2. I think it's unlikely that Kate's one of the Oceanic 6.

special k said...

Agreed with whoever said Jack would try to shoot Locke but lead Ben around like a puppy? Please. He may disagree with Locke and his actions, but he knows Locke's deeds are grounded in what he thinks is right. While Ben (a character I love btw) is just an eeevil manipulator. I don't get it. Whatev. At least Terry O'Quinn rocked his line: "It isn't loaded, Jack."

Exactly. That was a big eye-rolling moment for me. I think it was meant to show Jack as a bad-ass but really it just showed absurd logic in the minds of the writers. Whatev, indeed.

on the dole said...

Jim Treacher (& company):

I'm being sincere when I say I wish I had your ability to rationalize every shaky plot device. Because the show really does have flashes of greatness, and that makes it more frustrating to see how easily they could fix a lot of the constant problems.

Regarding the walkie talkie, they're on an island with limited resources and imminent threats, and Hurley petulantly destroys the only means of communicating with their allies. Hurley wanted to stop the bickering and get everyone moving. Once he snatched the walkie from Sawyer, he had the ability to do all that. Why couldn't he just stuff it down his pants or something?

The boat people would surely get suspicious if they're monitoring and hear that Jack's group keeps getting no response from Hurley's (because some idiot chucked the walkie into the ocean). Hurley just sacrificed their ability to get updates or even warnings from Jack's group, and the ability to warn Jack's group of imminent danger (at which point, who cares if they're being monitored?).

Sorry, but if I was on the island and Hurley did something that stupid, it'd take all of my willpower not to knock his teeth out. And I see it as typical of the writers' failures. Virtually every poor writing choice they make could be easily improved. I'm hoping the next couple episodes improve and I wind up sticking with the show, but as it stands with episodes like this one, my frustration wins out.

Anthony Foglia said...

crc wrote, "In the extras of the DVD of last season, the segment about the "Orchid" showed the Dharma scientist getting freaked out about the appearance of a second "15" rabbit that needed to be kept away from the original. It suggests a sort of "Schoendinger's cat" type of thing and the possibility of an alternate universe or something. Is anyone talking about this?"

Thanks. I hadn't heard of this video. I just watched it on Lostpedia. (It is or was also available on ABC.com.)

I don't think it has anything to with Schrodinger's cat. Scrodinger's cat is one cat in a sum of two superposed states. The rabbit(s) appear to be in two separate states. (Of course, it's hard to even imagine quantum effects on a macroscopic scale, nevermind simulating them.)

The quantum explanation would explain the "shift" Candle asks about. But a shift in the wave function is typically meant to be a phase shift, so it wouldn't affect the spatial position of the rabbit, nor would it split it into two.

Now maybe they've found some way of entangling the quantum states of the rabbits, but that doesn't explain why they couldn't touch each other. (And in fact, if they did the shift the exact right amount, the rabbits couldn't touch each other.)

Also, Candle says the effect is Casimir-like. That's the force between two objects because of the quantized vacuum energy between them. If the objects get close, the vacuum energy decreases, which means there needs to be a force keeping them apart. There's no force required to keep the rabbits apart, as far as I can tell.

It does hint strongly at something like the Blinovitch Limitation Effect though. But we haven't seen any other clones or duplicates or entangled pairs to know anything more.

Now off to watch those mobisodes...

jim treacher said...

Why couldn't he just stuff it down his pants or something?

Hurley's pants have suffered enough!

Sorry, but if I was on the island and Hurley did something that stupid, it'd take all of my willpower not to knock his teeth out.

If it had been anybody but Hurley, that's probably what would have happened. Hurley was probably counting on that.

And it wasn't a stupid thing to do. Impulsive, yes, but not stupid. You know how FutureJack ended up agreeing with Hurley? Hurley's right. He's making sure Charlie didn't die for nothing. This was all in the episode, dude.

I mean, just because a character does something you wouldn't do, that doesn't make it bad writing. Does everybody in your life do everything the way you'd do it?

I'm hoping the next couple episodes improve and I wind up sticking with the show, but as it stands with episodes like this one, my frustration wins out.

Please warn us first. I'll need time to get used to the idea.

jim treacher said...

Oh, and who did Hurley grab the walkie-talkie from? And who did that person end up going with, Jack or Locke?

on the dole said...

Jim, no need to be snarky. I'm respectfully disagreeing, while trying to get a sense of where y'all are coming from to see if I can warm to it. I cited specific examples from this episode that are symptomatic of the larger problems I've had with the show. Many others have shared my complaints, yet seem to be won over here, whereas I'm seeing the same problems all over again.

Basically: 1) characters don't share important information with each other, 2) characters suddenly act like morons in key situations, and 3) the writers often use stall tactics, when there's clearly no shortage of cool things they're capable of coming up with to keep things moving forward.

Bowing out now. Sorry if I've just been a downer. It's out of frustration with the show, not malice. Hope we can still be cyber-friends...

jim treacher said...

Well, 1) The important information was shared and 2) Hurley wasn't acting like a moron, but I don't disagree with 3). Although I can put up with it, knowing that there's a definite endpoint.

Anonymous said...

Can the island cure everything, even Death?

(think Christian, Charlie, Mikhail, Yemi?, Richard??)

So it goes said...

We don't know enough to say whether or not the island can bring people back to life, although it is definitely a possibility. On that topic I am wondering whether or not certain have a special connection with the island (Locke, Rose) and get healed and thats all there is to it, OR is there a relationship with the island that has to be maintained or the island mojo won't work for you. We know Ben had some type of a connection to the island due to his visions when he was a kid, so did he lose it or did the island just have a different kind of connection with him. Or maybe the island just used him for a purpose and then cut off the relationship when it was done with him.

So to answer your question anonymous, I have no idea.

katie said...

lizvelrene and dara,

there was an interview (not sure where-- ent. weekly maybe?) that asked about the future of nestor carbonell's mysteriously not-aging other and lindelof/cuse pretty much said they had no hope that he'd be able to appear while he was on a show on another network, so the character wouldn't be around for awhile.

not sure what the fate of cane is, so I don't know if the actor's become available for future episodes, but there's no way he could have been in this one.

Donny said...

I know this is late but I just finally watched the first episode last night - after catching up on all 3 seasons in about a month.

How exactly would it be possible for any of the Oceanic 6 to be Ben or Juliete when they weren't even on the Oceanic flight? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

And Michael and Locke don't make much sense either. Jack was visibly upset about the obit he read in the paper and this eventually led to his almost attempted suicide. Would Locke or Michael's death cause him so much grief? My initial answer would obviously be no...but I guess there could be something in the way they died?

treved said...

Donny,

By the time Jack is at the funeral, he is desperate to get back to the island (for whatever reason). He's taken to randomly flying Oceanic every weekend just to crash.

So someone like Ben, who knows everything about the island, and Michael, who knows at least how to get off of it (we think) would be a person that desperate Jack would need in order to re-find the island. Hence the sorrow over the loss.

I actually don't think it's either of them, but that is why it is plausible (or even probable).

Donny said...

treved:

I agree that it is possible that Ben could be in the casket; based on the fact that IF he made it off the Island, he would presumably be Jack's best chance to get back. However....

1. I don't think Ben would EVER leave the island...under any circumstances.
2. Ben cannot be classified as an "Oceanic Six" b/c he wasn't on the flight.
3. I guess it is possible, maybe even probable, that the person in the casket is not one of the Oceanic Six. Did they specifically reference this?

Donny said...

Not sure if anyone is even reading this post anymore...since the episode was almost a week ago...but I have a question unrelated to the episode and more related to the show in general.

What was the purpose, way back in season 2, of showing us that Libby was a patient in the same mental hospital as Hurley? They never elaborated on that. Was this an angle the writers were going to take up, but had to ax because of off-the-set issues? I've heard a rumor that the actress who plays Libby got a DUI and that led to her departure?

Sorry for the old questions, but I literally watched seasons 1-3 in their entirety in the month of January and a few days into February....so I wasn't a fan back when the seasons originally aired.

Thanks!

Toeknee said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
treved said...

Donny -

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that the term "Oceanic 6" only came up in this season's premier. So nobody referred to the person in the casket that way.

In fact, I think based on the supposed notoriety of the Oceanic 6, we can conclude that the person in the casket is NOT one of them. Doesn't mean it's Ben. Could be the dude that never ages. I don't know.

As for Libby, her DUI was not a rumor. She was arrested. Whether that was why she was kicked off is a matter of speculation (C&L's statements notwithstanding).

toeknee - I don't want to speak for Alan, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want spoilers on his site in any form.

Alan Sepinwall said...

toeknee - I don't want to speak for Alan, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want spoilers on his site in any form.

Yeah, blank space doesn't really help if you assume more people will post after you (and therefore readers will have to scroll past your spoiler to get to the non-spoilery stuff). Not a biggie, as Cuselof have mentioned that particular thing in public, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Anonymous said...

This may be really out there in terms of theories: but perhaps the reason why Hurley referred to himself as being one of the "Oceanic 6" is that only 6 of the survivors returned to the US. It seems that people have forgotten that the passengers on Oceanic were from various countries, who happened to be flying out of Australia.

Also: in regards to Hurley's comment that he didn't know Ana-Lucia, perhaps in the post-island world, he has no memory of the island. Perhaps his (and other survivors') memories were changed or erased, allowing them to go back to the mainland without sacrificing those who were left behind for whatever reason. Maybe the current episodes that we're seeing know are those characters' deeply suppressed flashbacks, and we're not viewing "flash forwards" anymore.

Toeknee said...

sorry about that....

thepopview said...

While I agree with you to a certain extent about the flashbacks, they were always a little more clever that you (and Christopher Orr) are giving them credit for. Read more here.

I find it very clever that they psyched us out with three seasons of flashbacks and then, just when we're really used to that format, to screw with it. Now, a scene we see might potentially take place in the past, present or future.

Donny said...

treved:

Good point - I'm confusing seasons. I watched the season 3 finale about 20 minutes before I watched the season 4 premiere. I was thinking the scene with Jack in the funeral home was from the premiere but you are right, it wasn't.

I guess that leaves open the possibility that it could be anyone in the casket. I can't wait for tomorrow night!!